ECOFIN Meeting: Confidentiality (Hansard, 25 June 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, meetings of the Council of Ministers are not open to the public but the outcome of discussions is reported to Parliament. For the outcome of the meeting of ECOFIN on 10th June I refer noble Lords to the Answer given in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 13th June.

Lord Bruce Donington
My Lords, that is all very well, but is the noble Lord aware that, according to press reports which appeared on the day following the 491 meeting of ECOFIN on 10th June, the French Finance Minister and, for some obscure reason, the Budget Commissioner presumed to give partial accounts of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in the Council? That is hardly consistent with the secrecy which is alleged to apply to all proceedings. In those circumstances would it not be best, in the interests of democracy both in Europe and in the United Kingdom, if the press were in future invited to the Council of Ministers in order that they and the world can see exactly what happens behind closed doors?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the press are not allowed in meetings of the Council of Ministers. I have heard of no proposals that there should be a change to that procedure. However, I shall look into the press reports to which the noble Lord referred to see whether it would appear that there has been a breach of confidentiality. If there has been, it is reprehensible and should be taken up appropriately.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, is it possible for my noble friend to update the House on ECOFIN's current position on the proposed minimum excise duty on alcoholic drinks? Is it the case, as reported in today's press, that the Chancellor has taken a strong line? Has he made it plain that proposals which would result in an increase of 40 per cent. on the price of a bottle of Scotch whisky in many member states while wine would continue to attract a very low duty or even a zero rate of duty will devastate the Scotch whisky industry in its major markets? Will the Government stick to their guns on that issue, bearing in mind the implications for jobs in Scotland and the balance of payments?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, at the meeting of ECOFIN yesterday we agreed a set of minimum rates which would apply to indirect taxes from 1993. In the case of spirits we argued strongly that the rates proposed were discriminatory and would have an adverse effect on one of our main exports. The Commission has been asked to report further on that whole issue. In the meantime the rate for wine is only provisional. EC ministers agreed to defer the decision on the minimum rate for spirits.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, if ever there was a question which was wide of the Question on the Order Paper, the noble Baroness's was. However, I found the answer extraordinarily interesting but I shall not follow up the point.
In relation to the Question which is on the Order Paper, is not the situation rather bizarre? Am I not right in saying that the meetings are confidential but that any Minister can give a briefing on what happens? Therefore there is competition between Ministers to say what they think has happened. It is not just a matter of democracy but also of efficiency. Should there not be some access, preferably by the press or someone else, so that it was clear what happened, as much for the sake of our Ministers as any other? The present position is very strange indeed.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, perhaps the present situation is not satisfactory but that is how the situation has always been handled by the Council of Ministers. As I said in my original Answer, of course Ministers give press briefings following meetings. In our case a full account is given to Parliament, normally in the form of a Written Answer shortly afterwards.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that confidentiality at meetings of the Council of Ministers has long been observed about as rigorously as it sometimes was at Cabinet meetings in Sir Bernard Ingham's golden days? Is he also aware that there is no great reason why those meetings should take place in an atmosphere of bogus privacy? The problem at issue is that there are already far too many people in the room—between 200 and 300. Nonetheless, does the noble Lord agree that it would be sensible that the meetings should be regarded as being in the public domain and that one or two people should be able to report what happened?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that is a suggestion, but to give an answer now as to whether I thought that it was a good idea would not be a good idea for me.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that, as pointed out by my noble friend Lady Carnegy, a proposal was put forward at those meetings to raise substantially the duty on spirits and lower the duty on wine to the competitive advantage of our European friends?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said, we argued strongly against the proposed rates on spirits. I take issue with the noble Lord opposite. The question refers to ECOFIN. The matter was discussed at ECOFIN only yesterday and on 10th June.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I ask the noble Lord not to take issue with me because, if that question is not wide of the Order Paper, I am perfectly prepared to ask a number of technical questions on VAT which I am sure would waste your Lordships' time. Although we obviously accept that the Minister cannot answer the question, we are approaching a period when major decisions will be taken both in that council and in the Council of Ministers. Would it not be a good idea to convey the view of your Lordships' House to the noble Lord's right honourable friend the Prime Minister that this might be a moment to break free, precisely as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, said, and let us have some objective reporting of what goes on? After all, it will affect the whole future of our country.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I accept that major decisions are taken both in ECOFIN and in other councils. That has been so for many years, although decisions taken formerly were perhaps not as important as they are now. I shall certainly pass on the views of the noble Lord and of one or two other noble Lords, but I cannot promise that there will be any change in the procedures.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)
My Lords, I must preserve the interests of the noble Lord who has tabled the next Question.