The Kurdish People (Hansard, 19 June 1991)

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, we will continue to give full support for the UN's efforts to set up a network of humanitarian centres and in the deployment of UN guards.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. May I also thank him and his ministerial colleague, Mr. Douglas Hogg, for the courteous manner in which they helped former RAF officers and myself when we wanted to make a contribution towards finding safe havens for the Kurdish people. Does the noble Earl agree that, even if we find the centres, there is still tremendous anxiety among the Kurdish people, and indeed among most of the peoples of the world, that the Kurds will not be safe unless there are sufficient allied soldiers present to guarantee their safety for quite some time so that they will not become victims of Saddam Hussein, like the Kuwaitis?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point about security for the Kurds. One can divide the subject into four areas of concern, and we are taking action in all four areas. First, there is the UN presence; secondly, there is the question of the Kurdish-Baghdad agreement, which is also important and which we hope will be signed soon; thirdly, there is the deterrence that the Americans can give to the Iraqis taking action even though the Americans may not be in Iraq at the time; fourthly, there are sanctions.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the UN guards have yet been recruited and whether in the interval members of Her Majesty's Forces will be taking part?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we still have forces in the area. UN guards are being deployed at the moment and more are going in on a regular basis. The target for the number of UN guards is 500.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether the Government are prepared to accept the word of Saddam Hussein that he will not attack the Kurds? When the right honourable gentleman the Foreign Secretary meets Secretary of State Baker, can the Minister say what proposals will be made by Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the Kurds will not be attacked? It would be appalling if Her Majesty's Government and the Americans withdrew their troops from Iraq and left the Kurds completely undefended.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition raises an important point of which we take serious note. It is at the forefront of our minds. That is why we want to see in place the agreement to which I alluded earlier. We want the deterrent there and we also want to see the UN guards in place. That is why the Kurds will not be left totally defenceless.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us feel that 500 guards is a totally inadequate number to carry out the task? Is he further aware that we may be accused at some stage of having led the Kurds into a trap which Saddam Hussein will spring? If the Kurds are not satisfied with their security, does the noble Earl accept that there may be a further exodus of Kurds into Turkey and Iran and that we should be prepared to have emergency supplies ready for that occurrence?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the first phase of the humanitarian effort, which was led by Britain, in getting the Kurds down from the mountains and back to their homes has been a success. It is not the UN presence alone which will give the necessary security to the Kurds. It is also, as I have said, the Kurdish-Baghdad agreement and the deterrent effect that the Americans can have on the Iraqis. There are also of course the sanctions, on which we have made our position clear.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether this is going to cost a great deal of money and whether the British taxpayer is expected to bear most of that cost? How do we propose to make Saddam Hussein pay for this and other liabilities?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, that is taken care of in the Security Council resolutions. As regards the noble Lord's first question, of course these measures will cost a great deal of money. Britain has been to the forefront in paying her contribution. We very much hope that other countries will follow our lead.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, the Minister has said on a number of occasions that Saddam Hussein will be deterred by the American presence and the possibility of their intervening if Saddam Hussein 161 attacks the Kurds. Can he say whether we have had such assurances from the Americans and, if so, in what form and when were they made?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, no, because we have not reached that stage yet. I was saying that that was a part of the package because the American forces are still there. The noble Lord raises an important point. It has to be made absolutely clear to Saddam Hussein that, should he carry out behaviour which is unacceptable, action will be taken.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that past events suggest that the safety of the Kurds is not secure without air cover? Has thought been given to the provision of air cover; and can the noble Earl say whether that point has been drawn to the attention of Saddam Hussein?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, again that is an important point. Air cover is very important and it is one of the measures that the Americans can provide close to the border of Iraq. It will be taken very much into account.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that both in this country and in America there is increasing wonder as to what the war was really about, bearing in mind the almost daily increase in the truculence of Saddam Hussein? Does he believe that Saddam Hussein is now conforming to what is being asked of him by America, even though all the time he seems to be saying no, no, no? Can the Minister say what the war was really about?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the situation earlier this year, and at the end of last year, was very clear and was debated often in your Lordships' House; it was to get Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, the country that he invaded.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that all the treaties that have been mentioned are to a degree encouraging? However, will he also remember that the Kurds were attacked with poison gas long before Kuwait was attacked and that they suffered intolerable agony? Is the noble Earl further aware that, having come down out of the mountains to be in the safe areas, the great anxiety of the Kurds is that those areas should be made reasonably comfortable? However, they will not be safe unless there is an abundance of United Nations troops in the region to prevent any attack by Saddam Hussein.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we are well aware of the difficulties that have gone on in Northern Iraq for many years, as the noble Lord said, before Kuwait was invaded. That is why we are relying on the package which I have explained to the House and which we hope will give the Kurds the satisfactory reassurance that they need.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, can we make sure that there are facilities at convenient UN bases in Cyprus to provide reinforcements at the shortest possible notice, should that be necessary?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend raises a most important point which I shall pass on to my right honourable friend.