HL Deb 14 June 1991 vol 529 cc1285-7

11.35 a.m.

Bareness Turner of Camden asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they are aware that industrial action may be taken from 1st July as a result of the threatened withdrawal of bargaining rights from unions representing the United Kingdom employees of the airline TWA; and, if so, what action they intend to take.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Viscount Ullswater)

My Lords, the Government firmly believe that it is for individual employers to decide, in the light of their own business needs and circumstances, whether to introduce or continue collective bargaining arrangements with a particular trades union or unions. It would be wholly inappropriate for the Government to intervene in the conduct of industrial relations in any specific company or organisation.

Baroness Turner

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the circumstances that Answer is totally unsatisfactory? Does he not know that the Minister of Transport allowed American Airlines to take over the TWA slot at Heathrow without ascertaining whether the company would honour existing agreements? Is there not a government responsibility in that regard? What are employees to do in that situation? A ballot was held with a majority vote in favour of action. Do the Government feel no responsibility either to the employees or to the travelling public in such circumstances?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, under existing legislation the question of whether or not to recognise a trades union is a voluntary matter to be determined by employers having regard to their specific needs and circumstances. The law does not provide employees with a specific right to be represented by their union in negotiations with their employer. Where recognition and/or bargaining arrangements are withdrawn, trades unions and their members remain free to organise and take industrial action if they see fit, provided it complies with the relevant statutory requirements.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, are the Government not concerned in the matter in that they facilitated the effective change of employer in regard to the people in dispute? In the circumstances, although the Government may not be able to take official action, is it not possible for them to do a bit of leaning on people here and there? Something which should not take place is taking place.

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, we firmly believe that those are matters for the company and its staff and not for heavy-handed state intervention. Government intervention in the airline industry does not work. I am sure that noble Lords will recall that under state ownership in the 1970s British Airways recorded huge losses, while since privatisation it has become the most profitable airline in the world.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Viscount saying that it is heavy-handed for the Government to insist, as part of the condition for the transfer of the route from one company to another, that the rights enjoyed by trades unionists with the outgoing company should be honoured by the new company? Surely that is fair. Should not the Government exercise, on behalf of the trades unions, the same kind of persuasion that they often exercise on behalf of corporate power which provides most of the funds for his party?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, indeed not. The Government do not insist on recognition agreements being transferred. As I said, it is for the company to determine with which union, if any, they wish to have a recognition agreement. It comes as no surprise that the Opposition are seeking to turn the clock hack to help their pay-masters, the trades unions, to achieve by force what they cannot achieve by persuasion.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, would the Government take the same disinterested line if the Conservative Party also was paid for by the unions?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, we are only interested in good industrial relations.

Baroness Phillips

My Lords, is it not the position that the Government are enthusiastic about Europe and like to spend our money there? Surely that will contravene one of the social policies of the European Community. It must be watched, otherwise the Government may be in contravention.

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, the Government are not contravening any European statutory regulation.

Lord Monkswell

My Lords, some of us on these Benches will be pleased that the Government have changed their policy—one can only presume that that is a result of Majorism—and they will not be involved in industrial disputes on one side or the other, given the previous history of involvement in industrial disputes on the side of employers. Will not the Government go a little further and try to improve the industrial relations climate by encouraging employers to recognise the democratically expressed will of their employees in terms of the recognition of unions?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, it would be entirely wrong to force companies to recognise unions if they do not wish to do so.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, does not the Minister agree that on these Benches we are not asking for heavy-handed intervention on the industrial relations scene, but simply that the Government should accept some responsibility in a dispute that would have great public repercussions and where the Government themselves have had some responsibility as regards the American Airlines agreement?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, I do not believe that it is right to put back the clock.