Merchant Ships: Defence Role (Hansard, 12 June 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, copies of the Executive summary of the report on the study into the future supply and demand for UK merchant ships in 1084 time of war were placed in the Libraries of both Houses yesterday. I regret the delay in making the summary available. That arose because some elements of the work took longer than expected.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his courtesy in sending me a copy of the report. It demonstrates once again the power of a parliamentary Question. What steps do the Government intend to take about one of the report's conclusions that, in the event of tension, there will be a significant shortage of certain types of ships to meet our needs? Do the Government intend to use the Finance Bill as a last opportunity to prevent the continuous flagging out of ships from the British Merchant Navy and its continuing decline?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we must remember that the study examined the supply of and demand for merchant shipping in the context of a major world war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. That is now a less likely scenario. The Finance Bill is a matter for another place. I understand that amendments have been tabled to the Bill which may be debated next week. Noble Lords will just have to wait and see.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is it not the case that our Armed Forces were short of Merchant Navy capacity during the Falklands war and had to grub around for tonnage? Is there any intention to have a joint Merchant Navy in the Economic Community after 1992? If such an appalling event took place, it would not look good for the defence of this country bearing in mind the performance of some of our European partners during the recent fracas in Kuwait.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not aware that there was a shortage of merchant tonnage during the Falklands war. I know of no proposals for a joint Merchant Navy involving the Community countries. In the event of a major war involving NATO, with which the study was involved, the United Kingdom would have access to the NATO pool of shipping.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, bearing in mind the vital role that we play in NATO and the fact that we have always regarded the Merchant Navy as an essential part of our defence, can the Minister assure the House that the Merchant Navy will be treated as a full member of the Armed Forces?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we recognise the value of the Merchant Navy in support of our Armed Forces. It is not a part of our Armed Forces but we recognise its value in addition.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that on numerous occasions anxiety has been expressed about the vital part that merchant shipping will play in any defence requirements? In view of the fact that the summary of the report is now in the Library of the House but that few noble Lords will have read it, will he assure the House that the matter will be dealt with in today's debate on defence?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, what is dealt with in the debate will be a matter for noble Lords 1085 who take part. They may wish to see the summary that has been placed in the Library. The study was made in the context of an event which is now less likely to occur.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, it is not for noble Lords who take part in the debate to make a statement but for the Government to make an official Statement. As the House is about to debate the important question of defence, will the Government make a Statement about the study?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not aware that the Government have any plans to do so.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, my noble friend rightly values the importance of the Merchant Navy. Is he aware that the new cadet entry for 1988 was 69 while in 1975 it was 2,315? Can anything be done about that figure?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not know from where my noble friend obtained those figures. Since 1988, when the Merchant Shipping Act gave the Government powers to give assistance to the training of cadets, the annual recruitment has risen from 162 to 525 this year.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the figures came from the United Kingdom Shipping Industry Study for the British Maritime Charitable Foundation and has he seen that?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that may be the case, but the recruitment figure for this year is 525.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the report to which he has referred states that there will be a need for 10,000 seafarers between now and the year 2,000? It is unlikely that we shall recruit them. Has he noted that the latest addition to the P&O fleet is a 70,000 tonne cruise liner which has been constructed in Italy, will be registered in Italy, will be manned by Italian seamen and will operate out of Fort Lauderdale in the United States? In the event of tension, when we may need such a ship for our own purposes, is it really provident to rely on a ship of that kind with a foreign crew? Do not the Government run a serious risk in this regard?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, without the full facts before me, I cannot give a definitive answer to the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. I suspect he will find that the ship is flagged in Italy because it was built in Italy under special incentives which require it to remain under the Italian flag for a certain period of time. We had the same situation up until a few years ago. As soon as that time period expires, the ship will probably leave the Italian flag.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, has not the Minister heard the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, say that, in the absence of any further financial help, he intends to flag out further ships and that this is one of those ships? Why does the Minister believe that the ship will return to this country?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, according to the noble Lord, the ship is already flagged out and has not been under our flag.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, why did not the Government give special incentives so that the ship might be built in this country where our shipyards are being run down and badly need ships to build?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, a problem of merchant shipping around the world has been over-subsidisation of shipyards which has resulted in over tonnaging, low profits and no incentive to own ships.