HL Deb 10 June 1991 vol 529 cc887-9

2.36 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many warships are presently operated by the navy of the USSR; to what categories these warships belong; and whether the number of warships has increased or decreased over the last five years.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Arran)

My Lords, the Soviet navy currently has a total of 1,145 operational warships and submarines, including 210 major surface warships and 285 combatant submarines. Five years ago the Soviet navy had 1,380 operational warships and submarines, including 270 major surface combatants and 340 combatant submarines. This reduction in numbers reflects the decommissioning of large numbers of obsolete units.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that extremely informative reply. Will he add to it by indicating whether the Soviet Union has given any explanation as to why a country that has so little dependence on sea communications and is situated in a great land mass requires a navy of this enormous size?

The Earl of .Arran

My Lords, that is a reasonable question in the circumstances. As regards the future size of the Soviet navy, that is entirely a matter for the Soviet Union. However, shortly measures will be concluded, including treaties, which seek to limit the number of Soviet warship vessels, including submarines, within the next decade.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, notwithstanding what has been said, is it not the case that there is a good deal of disquiet and concern in defence circles about the cuts? How many Royal Navy ships are now under construction and how many are projected for 1991–92?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will be interested in the forthcoming debate on defence matters which is to take place this Wednesday. As regards frigates and destroyers, at present we have 46 and under the terms of Options for Change we envisage that by the year 1995 we shall have about 40.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, why do the Government and their NATO allies continue to reject Soviet requests for discussions on naval disarmament? Is it because of the much greater size and capability of the NATO navies?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, that is not the reason. The noble Lord knows full well that ever since the outset of the talks on reductions of arms and armaments, it has been agreed that maritime discussions should be excluded.

Lord Mason of Barnsley

My Lords, will the Minister give the House some information about the Soviet nuclear submarine building programme and also the aircraft carrier building programme?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, the Soviet submarine building programme is about constant at this present moment in time. Three new aircraft carriers have been built and they will enter service before the end of the decade. That will give the Soviet Union an entirely new capability.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, any noble Lord who is worried about the size of the Soviet navy might consider joining others in pressing the Government to accept the Soviet offer of talks on naval arms reductions which has been in existence for many years now. If we all pressed for such talks, the United States would be left alone in the world in resisting them.

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, as I have already said, the United States and the USSR have always agreed that talks on the future of maritime forces would not take place for the time being.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, is it not making a mockery of the peace that Russia continually talks about for that country to have one of the largest navies in the world?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, the noble Lord knows full well that under Options for Change and agreements that have been drawn up in consultation with our NATO allies, the arms and defence manpower of the Soviet Union will decrease considerably over the next few years.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, the Minister gave some important figures in his initial Answer and he has referred to NATO today. Will the Government consider, along with our allies, dismissing those recommendations that call for a dramatic reduction in NATO forces until we know that it is safe to do so?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there is always a need for caution. We must keep an extremely wary eye on future events. This country, in consultation with our NATO allies, will always keep the Soviet capability under review.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does my noble friend have in mind that the fact that the Soviet Union is apparently able to afford the massive expenditure required to maintain naval forces of that size casts a rather interesting light on its request for financial aid?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, indeed it does, as my noble friend said. The financial state of the Soviet Union is very precarious at the moment. Whether it will be able to afford to devote so much of its assets and expenditure to its armed forces is very much a matter for conjecture.