Adult Education: Funding (Hansard, 7 June 1991)

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the Government's policy is set out in the White Papers, Education and Training for the 21st Century and Access and Opportunity—A Strategy for Education and Training. The White Papers make clear the value we place on the further education of adults for their own benefit and for the benefit of the economy.
From April 1993 the new funding councils for England and Wales will have responsibility for supporting the further education of adults leading to academic and vocational qualifications and a range of other important provisions. In Scotland, funding for further education provision in these areas will be the responsibility of the Scottish Office education 841 department. Expenditure on provision which meets the leisure interests of adults will so far as possible be met from fees.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the Minister referred to further education. There is a generally accepted distinction in education establishments between further education and adult education. I am asking about adult education. In the White Paper Education and Training for the 21st Century to which the noble Lord referred, paragraph 9.11 states: It is not intended that colleges should receive explicit funding from Councils for courses catering for adults' leisure interests". Can the Minister tell the House whether that means that there will not in future be public funding for work done by organisations like the WEA and the extramural departments of universities?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the White Paper makes no distinction between the funding of non-vocational and vocational further education for adults. The further education to be supported by the councils includes that leading to academic qualifications, the acquisition of basic skills and access to higher education. It is support for leisure and recreational provision which in future will be provided by fees as far as possible.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, I hope my noble friend will reconsider his reply. Both further education, which is a step on the road to qualifications and employment, and adult education, which is intended to broaden the horizons of people who are often in full-time employment, are vital elements in the British education pattern. I lectured on behalf of the extramural department of the University of Manchester some 50 years ago. The education provided by that department was considered an important part of the university's obligations towards the urban communities of the area. It is enormously unsatisfactory that such education should now be classed as a leisure activity. It is not a leisure activity. It is a broadening of people's educational experience. The muddle in the White Paper must be cleared up by Her Majesty's Government.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, as regards the additional provisions that I have mentioned, apart from the obvious basic educational activities such as national vocational qualifications, GCSEs, AS-levels and A-levels, the funding councils support access to higher education, access to higher levels of further education, the acquisition of basic skills such as literacy and numeracy, proficiency in English for speakers of other languages and, in Wales, proficiency in Welsh. The funding councils will also support courses for adults with special educational needs.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered the question that the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, asked. The critical question concerns which activities are considered by the Government to constitute leisure activities and leisure interests. Will there be public funding not just for the study of German but also German literature? Will there be 842 public funding not just for the study of science but also the philosophy of science? Will public funding continue to be made available for the kind of liberal studies that the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, has mentioned?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I believe the categories mentioned by the noble Lord come under the heading of academic studies. Those studies are covered.

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, academic studies are provided for. As regards recreational activities, I would refer to flower arranging as a typical example. Funding for such activities will continue through the local education authorities, if those authorities decide to subsidise local provision.

§ Lord St. John of Fawsley
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that what my noble friend Lord Beloff has said will command widespread support on this side of the House as well as elsewhere? I hope he will clarify the position of the City Literary Institute as regards these distinctions.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I believe the City Lit will be supported by the funding councils.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, it would be difficult to express more strength of feeling on this matter than did the noble Lord, Lord Beloff. The House is grateful to the noble Lord, who has vast experience in this matter, for commenting on it. It seems to me quite clear from the White Paper that adult education is now the Cinderella of the whole education service. Does the Minister agree that adults who wish to take university degrees and diplomas will in many cases be unable to do so? Adults who study at that level represent the best educational investment for this country. The result of their studies is good for the nation as a whole and not just for the individuals concerned.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I am happy to agree with the noble Lord's final comment. But I believe the new framework encourages such studies. The noble Lord claimed that adult education is the Cinderella of the education service. However, the average increase in the standard spending assessment for education for 1991–92 is 16 per cent., which is well above inflation. The increase calculated in the SSA for adult education is 13 per cent. That again is well above inflation. Those resources should enable authorities to finance an education service of a high quality if they manage their affairs well. I do not believe that the noble Lord would suggest that we prescribe how local authorities manage their affairs.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is it not apparent that a measure of clarification is required on this important subject? I hope my noble friend will undertake to place a paper in the Library of the House which covers this important distinction so that it may be studied.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the whole matter is covered, admittedly at some length, in the White Paper. I shall make inquiries to see whether a summary can be produced and placed in the Library.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I must take issue with the Minister and contradict him as this matter is not covered at length in the White Paper. The White Paper is an enormous document in which two sentences are devoted to the subject. I regret to say that when most of us first studied it we did not even notice those two sentences.
With due deference to the noble Lord who asked the earlier question, we need to find out whether this is a distinction without a difference. The White Paper contains two cryptic remarks. It says that the Government can help people in their daily life as regards education but that they cannot help them as regards education and their leisure interests. We want to know where the distinction has been drawn. We have pursued this matter before and the Government always refer to flower arranging. That is the only example they use. Is the whole of adult education being determined by some antipathy on the part of the Department of Education towards flower arranging? We are trying to get to the bottom of the matter. If that is the best example the Minister can come up with, one has every reason to be worried about what the department is up to.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, there are such courses. It may surprise noble Lords to know that I am myself a lecturer in adult education on gardens. Those who wish to hear me are usually willing to pay. I agree that the matter is complicated but I think that the word "academic" covers it. All of the subjects mentioned by my noble friend and by the noble Lord who mentioned Greek or philosophy would be covered by the funding council.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, like the noble Lord, I, too, have lectured to these people at the City Literary Institute, as many of us have. Will the noble Lord recognise what many of us are saying, namely that his lectures on gardening are valuable as adult education and that adult education should not be limited, for example, to lectures such as those of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, on history or my lectures on economics? We are asking the Government to think the matter through' again and recognise that gardening and flower arranging are perfectly good mind-broadening activities which it is in the public interest to encourage people to pursue.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I recognise that there is a strong feeling on all sides of the House that there needs to be greater clarity on the subject. I shall convey that to the department to see whether there cannot be a clearer definition of what the White Paper seeks to achieve.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I apologise for following my noble friend, but is the noble Lord aware that adult education is an old and respected tradition in Wales? It does not yet include flower arranging but there is a whole range of subjects. The 844 object is to enable young men and women to improve their position and to go on to further education. Many of them go on to university. Is the noble Lord aware that Coleg Harlech is the major college of further education in Wales? Can he give an assurance that the future of Coleg Harlech will not be prejudiced by the White Paper and that its funding will not be affected?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I am pleased to be able to confirm that the councils will be responsible for public funding of long-term residential colleges—namely, Ruskin College, Plater College, Hillcroft College, Fircroft College, Northern College, the Cooperative College and, last but not least, Coleg Harlech.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, when the noble Lord is preparing the digest paper will he make sure —because he is obviously not clear in his own mind—that there is a clear distinction between vocational and non-vocational education? We are talking about non-vocational education. He said that that is to be left to the funding of LEAs. If he looks at the relevant paragraph again he will see that it refers to "public expenditure". That includes LEA expenditure. That is removed from the funding of adult education. Does the Minister not accept that it is an essential part of our democratic system that, without taking diplomas or degrees, people should be discussing economic, social and political affairs in order to raise the awareness of the public at large?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I recognise that last point, as do the Government. It would repay the noble Lord to look at page 8 of Volume Two of the White Paper Education and Training for the 21st Century, which amounts to more than two cryptic sentences. Where I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, is that the White Paper does not make a distinction between funding of non-vocational and vocational further education for adults. That is included within the funding council arrangements.