The Citizen's Charter (Hansard, 23 July 1991)

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced yesterday in another place the Government's Citizen's Charter. Its four main themes are: a sustained new programme for improving the quality of public services; choice wherever possible; information for citizens about what service standards are; and value for the money the nation can afford. The Government will continue to set high standards of service which can be achieved with the funds that can be afforded.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord to answer my Question.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have answered it. The noble Earl asked the same question yesterday of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal; and it was answered then, too.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, the question that I asked yesterday was not the same. I ask a specific question. Will it be an admissible defence for a public service under the Citizen's Charter that levels of funding do not permit the provision of an adequate service? I should like to know the answer.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the charter will give a powerful extra stimulus to greater efficiency improvements, releasing resources for better public service. That stimulus will be provided by a new emphasis at the highest political level on service standards and value for money reinforced by the mechanisms highlighted in the charter such as privatisation, contracting out, competition, performance pay, published performance targets, a more effective complaints procedure, tougher audit and inspection and better redress when services go badly wrong.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, are we to assume from that reply that the real answer is no?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, no such defence is necessary.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, the Minister speaks of value for money. Will the noble Lord be so good as to say whether one can give value if there is no money?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not see that that question arises. There is plenty of money.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, does the Minister agree that many of the proposals in the Citizen's Charter have cost implications? I give one illustration: the provision of free medical checks for various categories. Can the Minister state what costings the 645 Government have undertaken, and what the implications of those additional costs are for taxation and for spending?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we shall continue to devote more resources to priority services when money can be afforded. As the White Paper states, the charter programme is about finding better way, of converting the money that can be afforded into even better public services.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, may I ask the Minister a second time to answer a question that he has been asked? My noble friend asked a straightforward question about a Government document: namely, what will its proposals cost? It is a matter that the Government are always emphasising. If we cannot be told what the Citizen's Charter will cost, will the noble Lord write to us? It must be judged in value for money terms. It is a simple question which should be easy for the Treasury to answer.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the question is easy to answer: it costs nothing extra to set a standard.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, planning applications affect people sometimes disastrously, sometimes to their advantage. Is the Minister aware that in the London borough of Ealing neighbours of those who have applied for planning permission are informed of what will take place and are asked to submit their views? Is he further aware that the council states that it cannot reply to those views because it does not have the resources to do so? Can that particularly insulting attitude be considered by the department as a result of the Prime Minister's desire to see fair play all round?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord has illustrated exactly the type of issue that should be deals with by the Citizen's Charter. It is not a question of resources but of giving the right services to the customers involved.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, it was said that it is a matter of resources.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, my impression is that the Citizen's Charter is intended to give people much more information. Should not the Minister set a good example by answering the Question properly instead of swirling around it like a Member of the House of Commons?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I cannot comment on the comparison that the noble Lord makes because I have not had the pleasure of being a Member of another place. As often happens, the problem is that because I am not giving the answers that noble Lords opposite would like they say that I am not answering the questions at all.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the Trade Descriptions Act apply to the Citizen's Charter?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as has been clearly stated, the charter's proposals are ones which we intend to implement and to see working for the benefit of the citizen.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, if the Minister is unable to answer the Question on the Order Paper this afternoon, will he write to the noble Earl and place a copy in the Library, because we shall all be delighted to read it?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, if I had been unable to answer the Question I should have been delighted to follow the course that the noble Lord suggested.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is it not a reasonable device to secure that there should be no intelligible Answer to a Question to make the Question itself unintelligible?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble and learned friend makes a good point.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, I am well aware that the proposition that the level of public funding is adequate is to the Government a tautology. However, are the Government equally aware that many loyal and dedicated public servants do not share that belief? Among them is a sense that they are being used as whipping boys for the Government's inadequacies which may generate a real anger and have the reverse of an incentive effect.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I must refute the suggestion that the level of public expenditure is inadequate. The Citizen's Charter outlines key areas of expenditure. For example, expenditure on health and social services has increased by 50 per cent. in real terms since 1979. In schools, expenditure per pupil has increased by more than 40 per cent. British Rail's investment is the highest in real terms for 30 years and a similar situation exists in the London Underground. Within those increased resources we are trying to achieve even better value for money and even better value for the consumer.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, when the Government judge what level of service is available within a particular level of funding, are they not judge and party in their own cause?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, not at all. We are talking about obtaining good value for money and good services within an already generous public expenditure provision.