London Buses (Hansard, 17 July 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
No, my Lords. It is for London Transport to decide how much of the grant available to it it wishes to devote to the purchase of buses.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply but I must confess that I am a little disappointed by the lack of detail. Is the Minister aware that recent figures show that 20 per cent. of the vehicles in the London bus fleet are past their design age? The Routemasters, for example, were designed to have a life of 17 years, but the present average age of the Routemasters is 26 years and that proportion is expected to reach 60 per cent. in less than five years from now. All of that uncertainty is the direct result of the Government's financial restraints and the blight which has been caused by threats of privatisation. Should not the Government have a plan to restore adequate funding to London Transport and rethink their destructive deregulation programme with a view to coming forward with alternative proposals?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, so far as concerns funding, as I said in my original Answer, it is for London Transport to decide how much to spend on buses within the funding figure. Government grant to London Transport will increase to nearly £2.5 billion over the next three years. That is more than double the figure for the three years to 1990–91 in real terms; it is double the level under the GLC; and in real terms it is three times the average level under the last Labour Government.

§ Lord Elliott of Morpeth
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that individual companies which have successfully competed with London Transport for the franchise of bus routes in the greater London area are now operating those routes with new vehicles? Does he consider that the ability of individual firms in that regard should be taken fully into account when granting future bus franchises?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. We have the evidence near this House. The No. 24 route, which is operated on a franchise, is operated almost entirely with new vehicles.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, will the Minister ask the Government to prevail on London Transport not to waste money on expensive brochures of the type which I received this morning? The same goes for the gas and electricity companies. They should spend their money on the right things and not on the expensive rubbish which they send through the post. At the same 193 time we have ageing buses carrying the people of London. Cannot the Government prevail on those companies to spend their money more sensibly?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I suspect that if London Transport did not keep noble Lords in touch—and I believe that the noble Baroness was referring to its latest business plan—it would attract considerable criticism from noble Lords. Last year London Transport bought 425 new buses, the highest number for six years.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, in view of the increasingly ageing population will the Minister ensure that buses are designed to meet the needs of elderly and disabled people?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as time goes on and bus replacement takes place new buses are more suitable for aged and disabled people.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in a number of continental countries operators are required to operate to maximum age standards and that in order to encourage the renewal of fleets they are supported by substantial capital allowances and other fiscal incentives which then work themselves back into assisting the industries that manufacture buses? Would not that be a useful policy for the Government to consider and implement here?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said in answer to an earlier question, the Government grant to London Transport is at a high level at the present time. As regards the noble Lord's suggestion, I am aware that that suggestion has been made by the Transport Committee in another place today and it will receive the consideration that it deserves in due course.

§ Lord Teviot
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, that the ageing fleet is a serious matter. However, in addition to giving us the welcome news about the number of new buses that London Transport is to provide, will he give us the figures for the total fleet and tell us what plans London Transport has for the immediate future? Does he further agree that the Routemaster was an extremely good bus?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the Routemaster is certainly a popular bus in London. I understand that London Transport is considering spending up to £10 million on renovating its existing Routemaster fleet which would extend its working life by approximately 10 years. If it goes ahead with that proposal, I am sure that that will be most welcome to Londoners who enjoy the Routemaster bus. There are now on the roads more buses owned by London Buses than there were in 1985, and 15 per cent. of them are less than four years old.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, the Minister mentioned the No. 24 bus. Does he agree that the No. 24 bus is a model and probably the best and most efficiently run bus in London? Is he aware that the No 194 .24 bus is run by the north-east firm of Cowies? Would it not be a good idea to invite Cowies of Sutherland to run the whole bus service in London?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting point which is not often heard from the Benches opposite. As noble Lords will be aware, London Transport has recently contracted out a number of its routes. I do not know whether Cowies has tried to win the contract for the other routes, but I am sure that London Transport would be delighted to hear from the company.

§ Lord Brougham and Vaux
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that London Transport supports the deregulation and privatisation of buses in London and that in the next two to three years it plans to buy 200 to 300 minibuses and citybuses and 150 double-deckers, which are mainly the two-door variety, and not Routemasters which it has now planned to take out of service?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not sure that my noble friend is right on that last point because I understand that London Transport is considering extending the life of Routemasters. However, as I said, last year it bought the greatest number of buses for six years and intends to spend even more on bus purchase this year.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that his reply to his noble friend regarding the No. 24 bus route raises a number of issues? He confused tendering arrangements, of which many of us are in favour, with deregulation, of which few of us are in favour. The company which runs Grey-Green buses and operates the No. 24 bus route has publicly declared itself against deregulation. Will the Minister comment on that point?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have not yet mentioned deregulation in answer to any of the questions asked today. I mentioned the contracting out of the No. 24 bus route.