HL Deb 31 January 1991 vol 525 cc792-4

3.12 p.m.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham asked Her Majesty's Government:

When they will sign the European Charter of Local Self-Government.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)

My Lords, the Government have no plans to sign the charter.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, given that the 23 member countries of the Council of Europe, with the exceptions only of Britain, Switzerland, Malta, Ireland and San Marino, have signed the European Charter of Local Self-Government, will the Minister tell the House what articles of the charter Her Majesty's Government find unacceptable?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, to give just one example, the Government object to the powers of general competence contained in the charter. That provision means that local authorities would be empowered to do absolutely anything they wished outside the provisions proscribed by Parliament.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is the Minister not aware that during the term of the former Prime Minister from 1979 until her resignation, the Conservative Government in this country had a reputation for showing pathological hatred towards local government? This reputation was gained when the Government removed powers and responsibilities from local government. Is the Minister further aware that unless the Government sign the charter, they will stand condemned for the same attitude?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I do not agree with that premise. This Government have a fine record of supporting local government which is not at threat.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, I do not wish to show pathological hatred to anyone or anything. However, is it not a fact that there are local authorities and local authorities, and it is far better that all should be governed by the rule of law?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I agree with my noble and learned friend.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that while it is proper that local authorities should be governed by the rule of law, they should not be governed by central government? Is it not the policy of the Government to govern local authorities?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, it is for Parliament to pass the laws of the country and it is for local authorities to operate within a framework determined by Parliament.

Lord Rippon of Hexham

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there are no signatories of the charter which do not abide by the rule of law regarding local government? Without expressing any comment about the Government's record on local self-government, I hope I may suggest that it would do the Government a lot of good in this country and overseas if we were to sign the charter.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I do not entirely agree with my noble friend. Sweden signed and ratified the charter but that did not prevent it from prohibiting its local authorities from raising taxes for two years.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, is it not the case that the present position of the Prime Minister is that the review of local authority expenditure and government should be a fundamental review and that nothing should be excluded from it? Under those circumstances would it not be appropriate for the matter of adhesion to the European charter to be referred to the review for consideration?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, although we have neither signed nor ratified the charter, I am not aware of any breach on the part of the United Kingdom of any of the terms of the charter. As regards the review, nothing is ruled in and nothing is ruled out.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is it not a fact that the Government believe in the proper accountability of local councillors to their electorate? Is not the best way of achieving that to give local authorities powers of general competence so that the electorate know exactly who is making the decisions locally and can therefore hire or fire them?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, in reality I know of no country which would allow local authorities to range far and wide beyond what is appropriate in terms of local decision-making.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, is it clear to the Minister from the previous supplementary question whether the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, is for or against the European charter?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, that is a question for the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, to answer.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that if one were looking for an example of a country with exemplary local government, one would look to Switzerland, which apparently has not found it necessary to sign the charter?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. The constitution of Switzerland precludes it from signing the charter.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, is the Minister aware that British delegations to Hungary, Poland and Bulgaria have urged those fledgling democracies to adopt the charter, but at the same time those urging that course of action have themselves stood aloof?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I am aware that this Government have spent a great deal of time and energy persuading those governments to provide democratic local government. I am also aware that many delegations from those countries come to the United Kingdom to witness examples of good democratic local government.