Drink-Driving (Hansard, 29 January 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, the Road Traffic Bill at present before Parliament provides tough new penalties for drink-drivers who kill and for an experiment in the use of rehabilitation courses. We shall build on the success of the Christmas campaign with further publicity campaigns against drinking and driving.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, that is welcome news. However, as more than 800 people are killed and 22,000 injured on the roads every year in road accidents involving drink-drivers, will the Government recognise that the most important step to be taken now is to increase the perception of being caught? Is the Minister further aware that the most effective way of doing so, which can be seen in a number of other countries, is to give the police the power to carry out roadside breath tests? That will ensure that the testing is strictly random. Will the Government at least consider that on a trial basis?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we believe that existing police powers to stop and test drivers are sufficient. The Christmas campaign showed that they are being extensively used by the police. Over the Christmas period 15 per cent. more tests took place, with the result that the number of drivers over the limit was 10 per cent. less than last year.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, with regard to the breathalyser keeping people within limits, why is it not possible to allow people facilities for testing themselves before they get into the driving seat? Would that not achieve the same objective?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, there is nothing to stop people testing themselves if they purchase the testing equipment which I understand is on the 540 market. However, we do not wish to encourage that because we believe that drinking and driving should not go together.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is there not at present a disparity over the way in which the police carry out their powers in relation to breath testing in different parts of the country? That disparity is undesirable but would not the proposal advanced by my noble friend Lord Dormand remove it? Further, does not the experience in other countries where random breath testing has taken place give every indication that it would work in this country?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have no doubt that we shall come to random breath testing when the Bill comes before your Lordships' House. Therefore, I do not wish to pre-empt too much the discussions that may then take place. The issue has been raised in another place and I have no doubt that it will be raised again. As for statistical comparisons, the facts from New South Wales, for example, where random breath testing operates, show that our approach in seeking to change public attitudes has been more successful in reducing drinking and driving.

The Viscount of Falkland
My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government are still happy with the level of alcohol in the blood permitted to drivers? Does the present situation prompt the Government to think that a lower level might be more appropriate, or the prohibition of drinking and driving altogether?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the present limit is the level at which, for most drivers, the chances of being involved in an accident start to rise sharply. Priority must therefore continue to be given to enforcement of the present limits. We consider it more productive to work on attitudes towards drinking and driving than to reduce the limit.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us believe that those who drive badly at 8 o'clock in the morning cannot be drunk? Will he consider introducing a penalty for bad or inconsiderate drivers who give no indication when turning? They should be penalised, possibly more than those who are drunk.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, there are already a number of offences of bad and dangerous driving in the law. They are also the subject of a Bill which will come to your Lordships' House. I point out to the noble Baroness that it is quite possible to be drunk at 8 o'clock in the morning.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, following the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, does the noble Lord agree that at least five out of six road fatalities are caused by perfectly sober drivers who drive too fast, overtake on blind bends, drive without lights in misty conditions, fail to maintain their vehicles, take tranquillizers or antihistamines, or who have been up all night at a party drinking nothing 541 stronger than orange juice? Is it not time that we abandoned the notion that alcohol is the root of all evil?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not have the figures to confirm the five fatalities out of six. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Dormand, said, drink-driving kills about 800 people each year. It is the biggest single cause of accident casualties. Nevertheless, I am pleased to report to the House that the number has halved over the past 10 years.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is it not a fact that over the Christmas period the police in many areas were carrying out random testing? Is it not unfair to expect the police to invent an excuse for stopping a motorist when he is challenged? Would it not be better to give them the power to carry out random tests?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said earlier, we believe that the existing police powers to stop and test drivers are sufficient.

§ Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is dangerous for people to drive with one hand on the wheel with the other holding a portable telephone?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that is a different Question.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, does the Minister agree that under the present system the police tend on occasions—perhaps in a minority of cases—to indulge in pretexts in order to stop drivers and breathalyse them? Is that not totally unsatisfactory?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not think it is. I quoted the figures earlier. It seems to have had reasonably good results.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, is the Minister aware that no one welcomes more than I the slight improvement over the Christmas and new year holiday? However, the improvement was tiny and patchy throughout the country, as the Minister probably knows. Will he deal with the main thrust of my Question, that we should now increase the perception of being caught? Unless we have strictly random testing on roads I must say that the annual slaughter of 800 people, to say nothing of all the injuries, will continue for a long time yet.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we should certainly increase the perception that it is bad to drink and drive. We have been reasonably successful in doing that as can be seen from the figures I quoted earlier. The deaths caused by drinking and dangerous driving have halved over the past 10 years. However, I am the first to admit that we have further to go.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is not an aimed shot rather more effective than one vaguely shot into the ground? Does that not dispose of the case for random testing?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble and learned friend makes a good point. However, I repeat that we shall have ample opportunity to debate the issue in time to come.