HL Deb 22 January 1991 vol 525 cc75-7

Lord Harris of Greenwich asked Her Majesty's Government:

What action they propose to take following the warnings by a number of chief officers of police that community charge capping will lead to severe reductions in the numbers of police officers on the streets.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)

My Lords, both I and my noble friend Lord Ferrers have met a number of police authority representatives to hear their views. As was made clear in another place on 17th January, the Government stand by the capping intentions announced on 31st October. These remain firm but provisional, since under that statute we cannot take our decisions until after budgets have been set. When we do take our decisions all appropriate considerations will be taken into account, including the need for expenditure restraint, improving efficiency and the level of police manpower approved by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is she aware that the chief officers of the six largest police forces outside London have warned the Government that the consequences of capping will be an immediate stop to the recruitment of new police officers, no new vehicles and major cuts or the abandonment of their entire capital programmes? Can such action be sensible when serious crime is increasing in this country?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, we have met members of the authorities and spoken to some of the chief constables. We are aware of some of the arguments that are being presented. Budgets must be submitted in accordance with the criteria and it will be for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to make his judgment at the time.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, Sir James Anderton, has been forced to recommend to the police authority a reduction in the number of civilian staff and the loss of 100 officers? Bearing in mind the fact that in Greater Manchester there is one of the highest incidence of crime in the country, is that not a retrograde step and will the Minister do something about it?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, all of these arguments have been heard by myself and by my right honourable friend. The criteria for capping was well advanced in October last year. Budgets must be set in the light of those criteria, which have now been confirmed. It will be for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to consider all the cases in the light of the budgets that will be set.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, in the light of the Minister's reply and the warnings given by six leading chief constables that they face cuts, will the Minister on behalf of the Department of the Environment confirm that the police authorities will not be penalised for overspending in order to maintain the staffing levels agreed by the Home Office? Can she confirm, in other words, that the DoE will not penalise those authorities for doing what the Home Office has prescribed?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, it is not proper or appropriate for me to pre-empt the Secretary of State's judgment as regards the budgets that will be set for those authorities after a judgment about expenditure right across the authorities. In other words, everything that can be done will be done so as to protect the jobs of policemen.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, do not these questions suggest a doubt about whether it is wise to continue local authority control of the police?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I believe that that question is for another day.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, will the Minister reply to the question asked by my noble friend Lady Hollis about principle? It is not a question of trying to pre-empt the Secretary of State's judgment about individual cases but a question of principle. If the Home Office lays down certain standards of policing to which the local authorities must adhere, will the Secretary of State for the Environment accede to them when coming to judge the budgets of those same local authorities?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, the noble Baroness did not pose that question. She asked whether guarantees could be given that penalties would not be imposed on those authorities. I cannot give that judgment in advance of their cases being heard. The budgets that are set must be lawful and must take into account statutory duties. They must also provide for an efficient police authority and take account of the approved level of police manpower.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, would not a policy alternative to that being put forward from the other side of the House be for local authorities to give police recruitment slightly more priority than some of the silly activities in which they indulge?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, that is a factor. The proper use of resources is a constituent part of setting budgets.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, although we welcome the fact that the arguments of the police authorities have been heard, is it not extraordinary that at a time when crime is rising we are talking about a cut in effective police manpower on the streets of more than 1,500 officers?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, we are not talking about that. The noble Lord is now speculating about what might be contained within budgets which have not yet been set. When they are set consistent with the criteria, it will be for my right honourable friend to make his judgment.

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