HL Deb 18 February 1991 vol 526 cc301-3

Lord Harris of Greenwich asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will institute inquiries into the circumstances in which a woman patient at the North Wales Hospital, Denbigh, charged with offences of arson, was remanded in custody on six occasions because of a lack of facilities for mentally ill offenders in the National Health Service.

Lord Reay

My Lords, since criminal proceedings in this case have yet to be concluded, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the particular circumstances at this time. However, it is the policy of the Government to ensure that mentally disordered offenders receive suitable and timely placements, and where possible are dealt with without resort to the courts, or failing that, the penal system.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Is he aware that I welcome very much, as I am sure all noble Lords do, the latter part of his reply? Is he further aware that this lady, who was a patient in a mental hospital and was charged with setting fire to her bedding and a tea towel, has been in a remand establishment since last November? In view of the fact that the Home Secretary has made it absolutely clear on a number of occasions that it is wholly wrong to have mentally ill patients in Prison Department establishments, can the Minister explain why this woman has not been found a place in a mental hospital as she was a patient at the time of this episode?

Loral Reay

My Lords, the woman referred to in the Question has not yet been sentenced and therefore comment on her case is sub judice under the Contempt of Government Act 1981. I understand that she appeared in court again today and is due again in court on 13th May. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has established an All-Wales Advisory Group on forensic psychiatry. This is currently considering how the specific needs of Wales for medium secure psychiatric units should be met within the context of the All-Wales Mental Illness Strategy.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is deep concern in Wales about the serious shortage of secure accommodation in mental hospitals in the Principality? How many of these units are currently available and how does provision compare with 1989–90? What is the current level of local government expenditure on the provision of secure accommodation? Is the noble Lord further aware that I fully agree with everything said by the noble Lord, Lord Harris? This case is causing profound concern in Wales.

Lord Reay

My Lords, the Government acknow-ledge that we need medium secure units in Wales. There is a lack of this type of facility but that situation is now being addressed through the advisory group to which I referred in my reply just now. While this study is going on, work on an interim secure unit at Glanrhyd Hospital, Bridgend, has commenced with a view to admitting patients towards the end of this year.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, is the Minister aware that this is an intolerable situation? This unfortunate woman will now be in Risley, which does not have a very attractive reputation, until May and will have been kept for six months in those circumstances. Surely there must be some hospital in Wales in which she could be accommodated rather than in that remand centre.

Lord Reay

My Lords, according to my information, the woman will be in Ashworth Hospital until she appears again in court.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, following the incident, the hospital at which the woman was a patient has refused to take her back? Is he further aware that the chairman of the magistrates' court made it clear how concerned was the Bench that no facilities were available for this woman and that that was why she was remanded in custody? Is he finally aware that the Bench also pointed out that there had been a serious delay in the preparation of psychiatric reports? How can that possibly be justified?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I must repeat that it is not proper for me to say anything more about the case at this time. On the broader question, I acknowledge that there is a lack of these facilities in Wales. There need to be more. The problem is being addressed and the advisory group will be putting forward some proposals.

Lord Irvine of Lairg

My Lords, when the noble Lord referred a moment or two ago to the Contempt of Government Act, was that a Freudian slip for the Contempt of Court Act? Is it the Government's fault and not the fault of the hospital that this lady has been held in prison for so long? What do the Government propose to do about it?

Lord Reay

My Lords, the noble Lord is right. I should have said the Contempt of Court Act. He asked what the Government propose to do about it. I have already said what the Government propose to do about it.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong, but is it not a fact that the lady has pleaded guilty to this offence and that therefore the sub judice aspect becomes rather different?

Lord Reay

My Lords, the case is at present sub judice because the lady in question has not been sentenced. For that reason I should not comment any further on the matter.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, can the noble Lord give the House some idea of when the advisory group will report? Is he aware that with a most uncharacteristic lapse of memory he has failed to answer the first part of the question put to him by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn?

Lord Reay

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, may have asked me about local authority resources. I do not have the answer to that question but I shall look into the matter and let him know. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, asked when the report is expected. It is expected some time in the spring.

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