Soviet and Russian Republics: Recognition (Hansard, 11 December 1991)

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the appointment of ambassadors would follow decisions on recognition which have yet to be taken.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, do the Government realise that, however amiable Mr. Gorbachev has been in the past, he is now completely finished? Does the noble Lord agree that the Government should not waste any further time in dealing with him, but should at once recognise the republics that have been set up so that we may negotiate with them what they intend to do with the nuclear weapons on their soil?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I believe that we recognise the situation as it moves. The noble Lord will be pleased to hear that a very senior British diplomat, Mr. Appleyard, will be travelling imminently to Moscow, Kiev, Minsk and other places to take forward discussions as regards recognition and other matters.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that developments in what was the Soviet Union have the gravest possible implications for the rest of the world, especially as republics like Kazakhstan have a nuclear capability as well as the new Slavonic association? Can the Minister say what action is being taken by Her Majesty's Government to investigate and to help the creation of stability in that 734 area? Are there any plans to discuss these matters in the EC and the UN? If so, can he say what plans Her Majesty's Government are proposing?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, discussions with our European partners continue. We are trying to seek a common line. As the republics develop in independence, it must be understood that they have inherited very large issues from the old union. Such matters will be discussed by Mr. Appleyard and others, and by Her Majesty's Government. It is very important that such matters, such as START, NPTs, CFE, CSCE, debt and United Nations' representation, must be dealt with. The attitude of the republics to these matters must be understood before we can take them any further.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for that reply. In view of the reported serious imminence of widespread starvation in the area, can the Minister say what steps are being taken by Her Majesty's Government and the EC to help alleviate that?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is quite right to bring up this very worrying question. The UK and the G7 partners have carried out detailed assessments of the Soviet Union's food needs this winter. Those assessments include Sir Ronald McIntosh's mission in September. We are clear that the position in certain large cities and industrial regions in particular could be very difficult, but we are not clear how much more difficult it will be compared to most other years. Considerable Western effort has been made. Western food credits of 11.2 billion United States dollars have been committed for 1991–92, including 2.4 billion dollars of EC food aid. There is a long list of further contributions. Our own response has been generous. We have paid a full share towards the 2.4 billion dollars; up to 500 million dollars plus 100 million dollars has been the approximate contribution towards debt referral. In addition, approximately 90 million dollars have been provided for the Know How Fund and approximately another 180 million dollars for EC technical assistance. Much is being done.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, will the noble Lord give the House an assurance that the Government will at least consider making recognition conditional on the observance by these republics of certain international obligations, notably the nuclear non-proliferation treaty of 1967, the test ban treaty of 1963, and the various conventions on chemical and biological warfare?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, in my long list I believe that I mentioned all those factors. Recognition of those matters is essential before we can fully recognise those countries.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, of the 15 states which have so far declared independence in the so-called Russian Commonwealth, is it not likely that at least the Ukraine, Russia, Belorussia, Kazakhstan and possibly Lithuania, will want independent ambassadorial recognition? Can the Minister say 735 which of these states are claiming seats at the United Nations? Will any of them be eligible to sit on the Security Council? Can the Minister further say who the present ambassador to London from the Soviet Union is really representing?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I believe that we already have posts in Lithuania which is one of the Baltic states. Ultimately there is no reason why all those countries could not be members of the United Nations. I cannot say which of them will have a seat on the Security Council.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some people consider it somewhat ironical that, having spent the past 74 years trying to destroy the Soviet empire—and that has now been achieved—the West does not seem to know exactly where the new republics are going? Is it not a fact that whatever we do, the new republics will go their own way to independence? Does the Minister agree that we should not be trying to recreate a new form of Soviet empire, but helping the new republics to get where they want to by the route of freedom, which I hope we would all support?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I cannot disagree with the noble Lord. I do not know where he got the idea that the British Government are trying to recreate the Soviet Union. That idea certainly does not come from this Bench.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, the noble Lord must understand that remarks by our own Foreign Secretary and the US Secretary of State seem to indicate that they almost regret the passing of the Soviet Union because they had not thought of what would follow when the Soviet empire was destroyed.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I shall not try to place any interpretation on the alleged remarks made by my colleagues. On the day after Maastricht it must be in all our minds that our vision should extend to those great countries over there and that we should wish them well for the future besides giving all assistance in their future development.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be wise for the Government to take the lead in this matter rather than tagging along behind everybody else? Does he agree that for once we might get some credit for the new republics and exports as well?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, in many senses we are taking a lead. I do not believe that empty postures are really appropriate. As far as our EC partners and others are concerned, we wish to keep a common line which will hold rather than have an unseemly dash towards artificial recognition.

§ Lord Zuckerman
My Lords, can the Minister inform the House exactly how and when the republics will appreciate the nuclear matters to which reference has already been made in the exchanges during these questions? Can the Minister say how we will know that the separate republics themselves understand 736 what the break-up of the nuclear system of the USSR implies, not only in terms of the arsenal of 30,000 nuclear warheads, but in terms of the USSR's defences which have already been threatened by the separation of the Baltic provinces from the old USSR? Who is going to judge?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, that is a matter of supreme importance and a great deal of thought has been given to it. The noble Lord may care to note the commitments made by the presidents of Russia, the Ukraine and Belorussia, following their agreement at Minsk, to maintain joint control of their nuclear weapons. Time does not allow me to go much more fully into that. However, I can assure the noble Lord that much thought has been given to the matter.