As AN AMENDMENT TO COMMONS AMENDMENT NO. 168 (Hansard, 25 October 1990)

§ Lord McCluskey
My Lords, I beg to move this amendment simply for the purpose of drawing attention to a matter which relates to Amendment No. 168. The final line refers to a trial. It means a trial under a solemn or summary procedure. As most of your Lordships will be aware, a trial under the solemn procedure means a jury. Under a summary procedure it means that the sheriff or district court judge is sitting alone.
Here we are talking about the child giving evidence live through a video link. Presumably, what happens is that the procurator fiscal goes with the child into the television room where the camera is. Defence counsel has to go in as well. The only person left in the other room with a screen is the sheriff. He is sitting in one room and he has to judge the matter. He is facing one screen. The prosecuting and defence counsel are sitting in the other room with the child. Sitting beside the sheriff and watching the screen with great interest will be the accused. I find that a very bizarre state of affairs. I wonder whether it makes sense to provide video links in relation to summary procedures.
Having said that, I would not expect the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to be able to do 1637 anything about it. In fact, I am not sure that he is competent to do so at this stage. I ask that that matter be noted. It would be unfortunate if we too readily moved into a situation where, in summary cases, the sheriff was left sitting alone with the accused watching the telly.
Moved, That Amendment No. 168A, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 168, be agreed to.—(Lord McCluskey.)

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, that would undoubtedly be correct. The scheme which we envisage and, as I understand it, under the scheme which is followed where such procedures are in place on this side of the Border, the child is likely to be in a room with some supervision from a social worker or similar person. For all other intents and purposes the court will be convened in the ordinary way. The only curiosity is that the witness being examined and cross-examined is missing from the court. The unfortunate circumstance of the sheriff sitting watching telly, as the noble and learned Lord puts it, with the accused would not be a circumstance that would occur.

§ Lord McCluskey
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord must think about that. You cannot have a child sitting in the room with television, a camera and a social worker with disembodied voices coming into the room and asking the child, "Where were you on the night of the 29th?" or something of that kind. That would not work. The person asking the questions has to be in the same room as the child. The person who has to cross-examine the child also has to be there. You cannot have the child holding the mother's hand or that of the social worker in one room with voices coming in through the walls which ask the child questions.