HL Deb 24 October 1990 vol 522 cc1409-11

55 Clause 29, page 24, line 31, leave out from '25' to end of line 39 and insert:

  1. '(a) barristers shall be deemed to have been granted by the General Council of the Bar the rights of audience exercisable by barristers (in their capacity as such) immediately before 7th December 1989; and
  2. (b) the General Council of the Bar shall be deemed to have in force qualification regulations and rules of conduct which have been properly approved for the purposes of section 25.'.

56 Page 24, line 43, at end insert 'and'.

57 Page 24, line 44, leave out from 'audience' to end of line 47 and insert:

58 Page 25, line 2, leave out 'by virtue of subsection (2)' and insert 'subsection (3A) shall apply in relation to that question if the Lord Chancellor so directs.

59 Page 25, line 6, leave out 'that provision' and insert 'the provision in question'.

60 Page 25, line 8, leave out 'be deemed not' and insert 'not be deemed'.

61 Page 25, line 13, at end insert 'subsection (4A) shall apply in relation to that question if the Lord Chancellor so directs.

62 Page 25, line 17, leave out 'that provision' and insert 'the provision in question'.

63 Page 25, line 21, at end insert:

64 Page 25, line 25, leave out 'deemed not' and insert 'not deemed'.

65 Clause 30, page 25, line 28, leave out from '25' to end of line 36 and insert:

  1. '(a) solicitors shall be deemed to have been granted by the Law Society the rights of audience exercisable by solicitors (in their capacity as such) immediately before 7th December 1989; and
  2. (b) the Law Society shall be deemed to have in force qualification regulations and rules of conduct which have been properly approved for the purposes of section 25.'.

66 Page 25, line 40, at end insert 'and'.

67 Page 25, line 41, leave out from 'audience' to end of line 44 and insert: '(2A) If any particular provision of those regulations or rules would not have been approved for the purposes of section 25 had it been submitted for approval under Part I of Schedule 4 it (but no other such provision) shall not be deemed to have been approved.'.

68 Page 26, line 2, leave out 'by virtue of subsection (2)' and insert 'subsection (3A) shall apply in relation to that question if the Lord Chancellor so directs.

69 Page 26, line 6, leave out 'that provision' and insert 'the provision in question'.

70 Page 26, line 8, leave out 'be deemed not' and insert 'not be deemed'.

71 Page 26, line 13, at end insert 'subsection (4A) shall apply in relation to that question if the Lord Chancellor so directs.

72 Page 26, line 17, leave out 'that provision' and insert 'the provision in question'.

73 Page 26, line 21, at end insert:

74 Page 26, line 25, leave out 'deemed not' and insert 'not deemed'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 55 to 74 inclusive. I shall speak also to Commons Amendments Nos. 76 to 85. These are amendments which are intended to deal with a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, among others, about the previous clause and whether it did what we agreed in policy it ought to do. The amendments clarify the fact that neither the Bar nor the Law Society can lose the right to grant such rights as the result of qualification regulations or rules of conduct being challenged or losing their deemed approval if the rights were enjoyed by barristers and solicitors at the relevant date. We have had much discussion about these issues. I believe that the amendments now secure what we all had in mind as their purpose.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 55 to 74—(The Lord Chancellor.)

7.30 p.m.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I have a query on Amendment No. 74. The amendments provide that where deemed approval is withdrawn the provision in question shall cease to have effect. As I understand it, the Government had originally explained that the purpose of withdrawing deemed approval was to enable the competition authority to examine whether or not a provision was anti-competitive. But surely there is no reason why a provision that is subject to challenge in that way should be invalidated in the meantime.

The Law Society would be grateful for an explanation by the Government as to why they have taken that approach. It appears that the only provisions which can be "undeemed" are the training rules and rules of conduct concerned with the rights of audience. It is important that that should be the case since otherwise solicitors' existing rights of audience could be put in question. I therefore ask the Government for an undertaking that the clause does not have that effect.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord has correctly explained the effects of the clause. The clause can render inoperative regulations of conduct or of qualification but not the rights of audience. The rights of audience granted in accordance with the rules that prevail at the time will remain.

I explained originally that the mere fact that the mechanism did not approve a rule did not necessarily affect the rule. That was one of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Meston, raised on a previous occasion. Having considered all those arguments I took the view that the mechanism should decide one way or the other in relation to rules of conduct or training qualification rules in relation to rights of audience or the right to conduct litigation. If it was thought that they were not appropriate rules it would be right that they should cease to have effect. However, that does not affect the rights gained while those rules were in operation. I believe that meets the point of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord.

On Question, Motion agreed to.