COMMONS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 24 October 1990)

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 185.
Clause 97 of the Bill deals with the arrangements for commencement of the various provisions and allows for them to come into force on Royal Assent, two months after Royal Assent or on such day appointed by order of the Lord Chancellor or the 1470 Secretary of State, or both. This amendment simply extends the list of provisions which will come into force either on Royal Assent, or two months later.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 185.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, it is a very important clause. I draw your Lordships' attention to new subsection (2) as proposed in Amendment No. 185. Paragraph (a) refers to Sections 6, 8, 9 and 14 and describes them as, (Discrimination by, or in relation to, barristers), (Discrimination by, or in relation to advocates)". However, when one refers to those clauses one finds that they refer to evidence given in arbitrations on small claims, the powers of the Court of Appeal to award damages, representation in certain county court cases, and county court rules.
Among the earlier Commons amendments I cannot find one which turned Clause 15 into Clause 14. I wonder whether a mistake has been made in listing those Sections 6, 8, 9 and 14 and giving them the description which follows in italics.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the references in the brackets in relation to those clauses are to the new clauses inserted by the Commons amendments. The clauses referred to are the new clauses in the Commons amendments. When the Bill is amended to give effect to the amendments, the result will be to use the numbering of the clauses which is appropriate for the purpose of the full text of the Bill.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, with the leave of the House, naturally I had considered that as a possibility. But even working that through, I cannot find that any of the clauses, including the new Clauses 6, 8, 9 and 14, relate to discrimination by or in relation to barristers or to discrimination by or in relation to advocates. 'The present Clause 15 will be renumbered and will come after Clause 14. Therefore, there is something rather odd. It may be that when the matter goes back to another place simple renumbering can be carried out. However, we must get it right and it does not appear to be right at the moment.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, with great respect, if the noble Lord looks at page 25 of the Marshalled List he will see a new clause described in the side note as: Discrimination by, or in relation to". I am receiving somewhat contradictory information. I feel sure that it is a matter of giving effect to the Commons amendments in the printing of the Bill as a whole. The sections which will come into effect on those dates are those as numbered in the Bill. My original answer is now corrected and that is the correct answer. The result is that the clauses in question are those which have that number in the Bill. That is my understanding.
Notwithstanding my present difficulty, I feel fairly confident that the matter will be taken into account when the amendments are put together in the final form of the Bill as it goes to the other place.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, again with the leave of the House, I hope only that my noble and learned friend is right. We must get it right and if it is found not to be right it will have to be adjusted.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I share my noble friend's sentiments most strongly. It now looks as though I may have the benefit of even further advice for which I shall be grateful.
The numbers in the amendment refer to the clauses in the Bill as passed by this House. The words in the bracket; relate to the clauses added by the Commons. I now understand the position. I am sorry—it is my fault. Tie new clauses added by the Commons as yet have no number in the Bill because, as I said earlier, they are described merely as new clauses. Therefore, in order to make proper reference to them in this provision we must use the heading for the clause. Clause 6 of the Bill will come into effect at the end of two months as will the clause side-noted, Discrimination by, or in relation to, barristers". That is on page 25 of the Marshalled List.
There are alternative ways of referring to clauses in the Bill. Those in the original Bill are numbered; for example, 6, 8 and so forth. Those that have been added as new clauses without as yet having the benefit of a number are referred to by the side-noted name. I believe that that makes sense. I am grateful to my noble friend for asking about the matter and I am sorry that I was not quicker in my response.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, at this hour of the night I thought that the noble and learned Lord was remarkably quick in his response. Perhaps I may make a suggestion for the future because I have learnt from what the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has said. It is misleading to have on the front of the Commons amendments: References are to Bill 105 as first printed for the Commons", because one immediately thinks that all references to clause numbers and everything else are to the Bill as first printed for the Commons.
Therefore, if there are references to a Bill in another state—namely the one leaving this House—it would be of advantage, either by asterisk or otherwise, to make it perfectly clear that those references are not to the Bill 105 as first printed for the Commons but to some other stage of the Bill.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, there is a slight misunderstanding about this. Bill 105 as first printed for the Commons is the same Bill as the Bill which left this House. The numbers are the same. However, the problem is that in these amendments, for example the one on page 25—and I take that as an illustration—there are the words "insert the following clause". There is no number for that new clause but a space is provided for the number to be added hereafter. Therefore, as the clause has no number, your Lordships must think of another way to which it can be referred. That could perhaps be done by reference: discrimination by, or in relation to, barristers". 1472 That is the side note of the clause. Therefore, the composite amendment which I have moved—Amendment No. 185 —is an amendment which uses the references where possible in the existing Bill as it left this House because that is also the way in which it reached the Commons. Where that is not possible because new clauses are proposed in the Commons amendment which is not in the Bill and not yet numbered, a description must be used. That is the explanation. At long last, it is clear and convincing and I am sorry that I did not take that up more directly. I should have known the answer before the question was asked.