HL Deb 17 October 1990 vol 522 cc885-6

2.47 p.m.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls asked Her Majesty's Government:

What action they propose to take on Sunday trading in the light of conflicting court decisions arising from the judgment of the European Court of Justice in November 1989.

Lord Reay

My Lords, it is for the courts in the first instance to resolve any differing interpretations of the judgment of the European court. The Government favour reform of the Shops Act 1950 and continue to encourage interested parties to try to reach agreement on a solution which would be enforceable, practicable and likely to command a parliamentary majority. No such solution has yet emerged.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that what his Answer amounts to is that the Government are not prepared to do anything on a matter that is reaching dangerous proportions regarding respect for the law in this country? Four judicial courts have said that with the law as it stands, it is impossible to unravel the contradictions and difficulties that surround this matter. Does my noble friend agree that we should do something about it before disrespect for the law interferes with people's adherence to it?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with my noble friend's point of view. The fact is that the Government attempted to change the law in 1985 with the Shops Bill, but that was defeated in another place. Until it is plain that that will not happen again, there is unlikely to be further legislation.

Viscount Tonypandy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have no sympathy at all with his noble friend and the Question that he has asked? Is he further aware that there is no public clamour at all for a change in our British Sunday? However, it might be helpful and remove anomalies if all commerce were forbidden on Sunday. I would support that.

Lord Reay

My Lords, I was aware that the noble Viscount held a different point of view. It was the Government's belief that our proposals would find favour with the majority of the population; but the Government have not succeeded in getting legislation through Parliament.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I have no sympathy at all for the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy? Can he tell your Lordships what is the cost to public funds of the mass of conflicting legal decisions taken in our courts as a result of the present confusion of the law?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I was also aware of my noble friend's lack of sympathy in the direction in which he expressed it. I do not have any figures regarding the costs to the different parties surrounding the present situation. I am sure that some costs are considerable.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I live a quarter of a mile away from a supermarket which is open all day every Sunday, and is invariably crowded by the population of the local district which regards it as a very good thing?

Lord Reay

My Lords, that bears out what I said earlier. The Government regard the law on Sunday trading as being outdated, full of anomalies and in need of reform. But reform can come only if it is subject to the conditions which I gave at the outset.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that, for many shopworkers, Sunday is the only day that they can spend with their families?

Lord Reay

My Lords, in the event of any future legislation the Government would seek at any rate to prevent shopworkers being forced to work on Sundays.

Lord Parry

My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that anyone who has no sympathy with the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, will get no sympathy from me?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I am sure the House appreciates that remark.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this problem will not go away? If the Government agree that the law needs to be reformed, the only people who can reform it are the Government themselves. Ought they not to get on with it before we get into even greater trouble in adhering to the law than we have at the moment?

Lord Reay

My Lords, the Government are doing a good deal to try to reach consensus on this matter. Since January 1988 there have been no fewer than 45 meetings between Home Office Ministers and individuals and organisations representing different sides of this argument. The Government continue to play an active part, and I hope that a solution may one day be reached.