NCC: Reorganisation Costs (Hansard, 11 October 1990)

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, to date the NCC has spent approximately £188,000 on preparations for reorganisation in the current financial year. This expenditure forms part of the NCC's existing budget of £750,000 for reorganisation costs this year, which itself forms just over half of the total budget of £1.4 million in 1990–91 to meet reorganisation costs this year incurred both within the NCC and the Government.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I understand that the money already spent on reorganisation came out of the existing budget for this year. In that case, is that not a loss to the amount that would otherwise be available for conservation?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I do not believe that there is a loss to the amount of money that is available for conservation. The noble Baroness may be referring to the possibility that the money made available this year for the reorganisation may not be sufficient. However, the Government are keeping the position under constant review.

§ Lord Shackleton
My Lords, the Minister says that the Government are keeping the position under constant review. Will the Government fulfil their promise that there will be sufficient resources to enable this disastrous Bill to be effective?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I do not agree that it is a disastrous Bill. Sufficient resources will be made available, and I shall address that point in more detail when we reach Part VII of the Environmental Protection Bill next week.

§ Lord Buxton of Alsa
My Lords, since the future of nature conservancy is clearly a non-party matter of great national concern, perhaps I may ask my noble friend this question. Is she aware that everybody in the country concerned with the issue knows that the additional costs of maintaining the service on a three body basis will be £30 million a year? Everybody knows that money is not available and that that is leading to the problems we face at the moment of not being able to discover what the cost will be. Will not the Government at this late stage take the prudent and statesmanlike course of transferring the relevant part of the Bill concerning nature conservancy to the White Paper? That will thus give time to assess carefully what the consequences and costs will be.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I cannot agree with the figure of £30 million which was referred to by the noble Lord. I shall answer that question in more detail when we come to Part VII of the Bill. It is too late in the progress of this legislation to be speaking of a major omission from the Bill and moving this part of the Bill into the White Paper. It is important to remember that this is a very good step on the way to ensuring that wildlife and the countryside are protected, and that the White Paper allows an open door for yet further development. It has not closed doors on anything in either an institutional or a development sense for both those important areas.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Minister says in her reply that it is too late in the progress of the Bill to consider major changes. Does she not recognise that the welcome point which was made from the Government Front Bench that the staff of the joint committee would be 50 indicates that the noble Lord, Lord Buxton, is approximately right in his calculation? What amount is being negotiated for public expenditure in the next round for the continuing costs of the reorganisation? If the Secretary of State intends to ask for these extra costs, does that not mean that he will have a hard time in the Star Chamber?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the Government have commissioned a number of studies to achieve a very scientific and objective measurement of the costs that will be incurred. I do not believe that they are even approximate to £30 million. However, that debate will take place in great detail next week. I can promise the House that I shall come forward with all the evidence that the Government have at their command and it can be challenged in this Chamber during the course of the debate.

§ Lord Shackleton
My Lords, will that evidence be available? Will the Government place the results of these inquiries in the Library, will they be given in the House, or will the Government continue to keep them secret?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not able to say at the moment the form in which that information will be made available. But information as to how we arrive at the sums will certainly be made available.

§ The Earl of Onslow
My Lords, am l alone in being worried that when my noble friends on the Front Bench state that it is far too late to change something it means that even if that matter is proved to be totally wrong they will go blindly ahead with it whatever the consequences may be?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, no. Of course it is Parliament that determines these matters. I simply say that there has been great institutional change. I believe that it has been widely welcomed although I know that there is still opposition to some of the changes. However, my view is that those changes should be allowed to take place now. It is important that the White Paper allows those developments to continue and does not close the door on some of the ideas that have come from this Chamber.

§ Baroness White
My Lords, does the noble Baroness admit that unless she is in a position to give us exact figures next week there will be continuing great apprehension among the staff and—so far as concerns Wales—the members of the new council that is to be established as to precisely what they will be allowed to do and what resources they will have at their disposal for the deployment of staff and other necessities for the proposed new administration? At present no one knows how to plan in advance because the Government have not been in a position to give them any firm information.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I shall give as much detail as possible and be as precise as possible when it comes to Part VII of the Bill. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness will chide me if I do not give enough detail. The studies that have been commissioned will be as objective as possible. However, I am not sure that I can say that the level of anxiety will decrease as a result of them. It is right that we should continue to be anxious that the resources are made available for those measures to work.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether her figure of £ 1.4 million for 1991 includes the provision of a headquarters building for the JNCC? If not, can she say where the JNCC will be situated? Will the staff all be in one place or spread around? May we have some idea of what element of the figure given reflects the cost of establishing the JNCC?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Baroness will appreciate that I am very new to this part of the Bill. My understanding is that the £1.4 million about which we are talking is expenditure in this financial year which would not include the building for the JNCC. Of course if I am wrong I shall certainly write to the noble Baroness.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I am sure that we are delighted to hear that next week we shall receive some figures and more information than we have previously had—which we certainly deserve. However, if the noble Baroness goes back on that assurance, there will be real trouble. We know perfectly well that reports have been made. Figures are available and they should be made available to us.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the conclusive work is not available. However, I am assured that information is available, and I shall be as disappointed as the noble Baroness if I have to come to the Dispatch Box without it. What information I have I shall deliver from the Dispatch Box during the course of that debate.