Carbon Dioxide Emissions (Hansard, 28 November 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)
My Lords, it was announced on 25th May that provided other countries took their full share, the Government were prepared to set the demanding target of returning our CO₂ emissions to their present levels by the year 2005. This approach recognises that an effective response to climate change can only be achieved through concerted international action. Our target and approach have been recognised both in the agreement reached in the European Community on 29th October and in the Ministerial Declaration of the Second World Climate Conference on 8th November.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I was aware of that. Does the noble Baroness recall that on 12th November when she answered part of the debate on the gracious Speech, she said: This Government made a firm target and will deliver that target". [Official Report, 12/11/90; col. 183.] Is that firm target dependent on what other countries do, or is this country prepared to make its firm target irrespective of what the other nations in the international community decide to do?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord is addressing the point about global emissions. Our contribution to those emissions needs to be seen in perspective. It is only 3 per cent. of the total; therefore 97 per cent. of CO₂ emissions are the responsibility of other countries. I have too short a time at my disposal to catalogue all that is being done by this country. It is a great deal. But unless there is a global approach to the problem, whatever we do in this country will be insignificant.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, while fully accepting what my noble friend has said, would there not be an advantage in this country setting an example to the rest of the world in this matter as in some others?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I believe this country is setting an example in that we have put global warming firmly on the agenda. My right honourable friend the immediate past Prime Minister called the first conference on this matter. That was followed by a number of other conferences. My right honourable friend pressed—I am sure that her successor will continue to do so—for the United Nations to agree to an international convention before 1992. That, together with all the practical measures which have been taken, not least those contained within the Environmental Protection Act which has just been put on the statute book, show that a great deal is being 961 done by this country to establish this matter as an important issue. The steps we have taken show our belief, however, that the only way to resolve this problem is through an international global response.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, do we have a programme for monitoring CO₂ emissions in the United Kingdom? If there is such a programme, will the Minister tell us about it? Is the Minister aware of a world programme for monitoring emissions? Do we propose to hold regular meetings to discuss this matter, perhaps every two or three years? If Germany can achieve a target of a 15 to 20 per cent. reduction in emissions by the year 2005, why is this country only seeking to stabilise emissions by that time?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the prediction of CO₂ emissions by this country between now and the year 2005 is deemed to be 30 per cent. Therefore, even to stabilise at 1990 levels means that a great deal will have to be done. Considerable demands will be made of industry, commerce and all of us to meet this challenge and there will be an impact on the economy of the country. We must keep in mind the balance between sustaining the economy and making a real effort to reduce emissions. I believe that the figures for Germany given by the noble Baroness which predict a level of 7 per cent. are unrealistic.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, not everyone is impressed by the argument that we should set an example. We need to obtain results on this issue for the good of the world. It may well be that in promising to meet certain targets by the year mentioned by my noble friend, providing others follow our example, we may achieve what the world really needs in the most practical way.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting point. It is argued that we have set a realistic target which is achievable but which will make demands on industry and commerce. However, the Government are concerned that the economy of the United Kingdom should not be disproportionately affected in achieving those targets if the rest of the world is not going to co-operate in a global response to the issue. I am absolutely convinced that the Government will continue to press for international co-operation. The Government will also in a practical way do what they can to achieve a realistic target without upsetting disproportionately industry and commerce in this country.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that another reason for the UK to take an initiative is that such an initiative could give rise to useful technical developments which, in view of the worldwide interest in this matter, could have export prospects?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, that again is an interesting point. We have determined a target that is tough but achievable. We believe that an orderly reduction in emissions gives us time to continue research and the promotion of innovative thinking to resolve this matter. Some of the aspirational targets, as I prefer to call them, are rather glibly talked about. 962 They would require almost all our cars being taken off the road; they would require industry to stop producing goods almost overnight. That would be unrealistic and disproportionately disruptive to industry and commerce.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, am I right in thinking that the Answer of the Minister to the Question on the Order Paper is yes?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my Answer was not a straightforward yes. I wished to assure noble Lords and people outside the House that the Government are taking a practical and firm approach to stabilising emissions at 1990 levels. As I have outlined, that is a tough target which will make demands on industry and commerce. At the same time I must emphasise that one country alone whose contribution to global warming is only 3 per cent. of the total cannot tackle the problem by itself. Other countries together account for 97 per cent. of emissions. An international co-operative effort is required to make an impact on global warming.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, will the Minister answer my question about monitoring arrangements?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I cannot say specifically whether there is one monitoring body. If I obtain any other information, I shall write to the noble Baroness. However, I am sure that monitoring is taking place all the time in order to define what point we have reached and whether we are making progress on reductions. I shall write to the noble Baroness with more details.

§ Lord Hankey
My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that nuclear power production produces no carbon dioxide?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. The figures for France are so impressive because the French have been courageous and have a buoyant nuclear programme.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, two points arise from the response of the noble Baroness. First, the figure which she gave about a 30 per cent. increase is directly challenged by all the scientists involved in this matter. The Government have been giving the figure of 30 per cent., but the scientists have found that carbon dioxide per capita in this country stabilised during the 1980s.
Secondly—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the Minister did not answer the question which I asked. I repeat that question. Although we know that it is necessary to have international co-operation, in view of the fact that other governments have set their targets will the British Government do what the Minister said on 12th November that they would do, namely, make a firm target and deliver that target irrespective of what targets are set in other countries?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, regarding the noble Lord's first point, we shall have to differ on the scientific basis on which the prediction of a 30 per cent. increase in emissions was made. If we do nothing 963 CO₂ emissions will increase. We can argue about whether or not that increase will be 30 per cent., but we know that there will be an increase. It is our intention that that figure should not increase and that emissions should be stabilised at 1990 levels. However, if the figure turns out to be much lower, as the noble Lord has indicated, as a result of our efforts on the basis of a 30 per cent. increase we shall have achieved more than our target by the year 2005 or even earlier. That can only be good. We intend to adopt a realistic target.
In answer to the second part of the noble Lord's question, I have said more than once that no stone will be left unturned in the practical efforts that this Government are making to bring CO₂ emissions to the 1990 level. This means that considerable demands will be placed on commerce and industry. We shall attempt to achieve that objective in a way that is not disproportionately disruptive for commerce and industry in the United Kingdom.