HL Deb 21 November 1990 vol 523 cc679-81

2.50 p.m.

Lord Gisborough asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many tribal murders have been reported in South Africa in the last three years and, of those, how many were in Bophuthatswana.

Lord Reay

My Lords, there have been about 5,700 deaths in South Africa between January 1987 and September 1990 as a result of communal unrest of all kinds, including some 65 deaths in Bophuthatswana.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Does it not indicate the benefit of the one-tribe state where inhabitants can live without the constant fear of inter-tribal riot and murder? Will he do all that he can to ensure that the views of the democratically elected Government of Bophuthatswana are taken fully into account in the constitutional talks, and that a deal affecting Bophuthatswana is not concluded by de Klerk and Mandela over their heads?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I should not say that Bophuthatswana was noticeably more peaceful than South Africa. A state of emergency is still in force in Bophuthatswana, whereas it has been lifted elsewhere in South Africa. There have been many recent detentions without trial and political demonstrators were killed earlier this year. With regard to the second half of my noble friend's question, we hope that the people of Bophuthatswana will have the opportunity to make their views known during the negotiations on South Africa's future. President Mangope has already requested talks with Nelson Mandela and has spoken of participating in wider constitutional negotiations. That is a positive development.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, does the Minister agree that political violence in South Africa is damaging the prospects of a settlement between the ANC and the South African Government, and that the evidence shows that it is wrong to seek to lay the blame on the ANC? Were those matters discussed in the talks between the Prime Minister and Chief Buthelezi a few days ago? If so, what recommendations or advice did the right honourable Lady proffer to the Chief?

Lord Reay

My Lords, we deplore the tragic deaths and violence that have occurred, whatever their source. There is a heavy responsibility on all sides to show restraint and to maintain peaceful progress towards negotiations. The meeting between my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and Chief Buthelezi in London on 15th November was part of an ongoing dialogue. It was agreed that there is an urgent need to end violence and to maintain momentum towards constitutional negotiations.

Lord St. John of Bletso

My Lords, while most of us oppose the separate development and homeland policy in South Africa, does the Minister agree that, when a constitution for all South Africans is negotiated, all political leaders, including the homeland leaders, should be included in those talks?

Lord Reay

My Lords, we believe that all genuine political leaders should be involved.

Lord Monson

My Lords, although Her Majesty's Government must be wary of interfering in the internal affairs of other countries—far too common a vice nowadays—does the Minister nevertheless agree that where there is a mixture of tribes, races, languages and culture, a loose federal structure with maximum local self-determination is greatly preferable to a tightly knit unitary structure?

Lord Reay

My Lords, it is not up to the Government to prescribe what should be the solution in South Africa. The details should be decided by the South Africans themselves.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, my noble friend said the population of Bophuthatswana would be consulted, but then he went on to talk about genuine leaders as if Mr. Mangope was not a genuine leader. Does he consider that the ANC leaders, who have never been elected, are more representative of their tribe than is Mangope, who was democratically elected in Bophuthatswana?

Lord Reay

My Lords, I said that I could give no assurance, but that we hoped that the people of Bophuthatswana would have the opportunity to make their views known. The democratic process in Bophuthatswana is open to some question. For example, at present all opposition parties are banned. As regards the ANC, I can say only that the ANC is the principal focus for black opinion in South Africa, but of course it is not the only one and a settlement will have to take account of the views of others.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, further to the Minister's reply to his noble friend, does he agree that the chief objective is to have free and fair elections in South Africa in which ANC members can have an opportunity to stand?

Lord Reay

My Lords, that is my understanding.