§ Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ How many people in the United Kingdom were in work, employed and self-employed on the most recent date for which figures are available.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Viscount Ullswater)My Lords, in June 1990 the workforce in employment in the United Kingdom stood at 27,345,000. This includes 23,237,000 employees in employment and 3,380,000 self-employed.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. Is not the total figure that he has given the highest ever recorded, or near to it? Is it not correct to say that the Government hope for an even higher figure with the help of current training schemes?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I can confirm that it is a record number of jobs. The figure is over 3,750,000 more than in March 1983 when the upward trend began and nearly 2 million more than during the previous peak in 1979. We shall endeavour to ensure that the figure continues to rise as a result of our training programmes.
§ Lord Mason of BarnsleyMy Lords, can the Minister give the percentage figures for those at work in manufacturing industry and those at work in the service sector? Can he also tell the House what the trend is revealing in this period of recession?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, there were 5,222,000 people involved in manufacturing in June 1990. In the service industry there were 16,194,000 employed at the same time. That figure was up by over ½ million on the previous year.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, can the Minister say whether the figures that he gave in his first Answer include part-time jobs? If they do, can he say what is the number of part-time jobs? Does he not agree that the biggest increase in employment is in part-time and not full-time jobs?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I cannot give the number of part-time jobs involved but part-time jobs are included in the figures that I gave. The number of part-time jobs has been increasing at a great rate, but that is not to say that people who take part-time employment do not seek to do so. For them it is a job, which they prefer to not having a job at all.
§ Lord Dormand of EasingtonMy Lords, I believe that the Minister said that about 5 million people were employed in manufacturing in June this year. Can he say what the number was in 1979?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I do not have the figure with me. I shall have to find out and write to the noble Lord.
§ Baroness Turner of CamdenMy Lords, can the Minister tell the House how many of the people who have become self-employed in small businesses following unemployment have subsequently gone bankrupt; and can he say what steps have been taken to assist them?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, figures have been given in Answers to other Questions that the number of registrations for VAT has far exceeded the number of deregistrations. That is the measure by which the success of small businesses is measured.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, does the, Minister not agree that the number of job vacancies is now lower than the number of unemployed people for the first time for some years?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, yes, I have to agree with the noble Lord.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that it is rather worrying that the number of people employed in manufacturing is only about one-third of those in other work? Does he further agree that the figures published yesterday show an overall reduction in GDP? Does he accept that the reduction in manufacturing capacity has been quite enormous, which augurs ill for the future economy of this country?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord. The figures that I have given indicate that the number of jobs in manufacturing has decreased; I have to agree with that. However, one should bear in mind that some jobs in the manufacturing industry in 1979 were not productive at all. A great many of the manufacturing industries were losing large amounts of money and there was a great loss of jobs when the labour market was shaken out in the next few years.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, has my noble friend noticed that all the questions from the Opposition Benches are designed to show that things are worse than they are? Does he not agree that this rising cry of stinking fish is somewhat discreditable?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for his intervention. It is quite clear that the economy is in better shape to take off when inflation falls. The most important factor is to get inflation down. The Government are taking stringent steps to ensure that that happens.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, despite what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, has said—
§ Lord MellishSit down. For once in your life shut up.
§ Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of HastoeMy Lords, is the Minister aware that most of the answers that the 617 Government give to these questions suggest that matters between 1974 and 1979 were far worse than they really were?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, if manufacturing output dropped between 1974 and 1979, the situation was worse then than it is now.
§ Baroness Turner of CamdenMy Lords, is it not a fact that in 1979 the levels of unemployment were far lower than they are now?
§ Viscount UllswaterYes, my Lords, that is quite correct, but a record number of jobs has been made available since that time.
§ Lord Callaghan of CardiffMy Lords, would it not be appropriate if the Minister were to reply to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, with the immortal words of Adlai Stevenson: "If they will stop telling lies about us, we will stop telling the truth about them"?
§ Viscount UllswaterMy Lords, I do not think that that needs a reply.