§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ How many summonses for alleged breaches of the law on Sunday trading have been dismissed by magistrates or on appeal in the last six months on the grounds that English law on the subject conflicts with the law of the European Community.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, I regret that information in the form which is requested by my noble friend is not held centrally.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that most interesting Answer. Is he aware that the information is available to, and in the hands of, those who look for it? It shows that during the period dismissals amounted to nine. Five cases were withdrawn and 59 cases were adjourned sine die. What is the cost to public funds of such fruitless proceedings and when will Her Majesty's Government summon up the courage to deal with the matter?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me the information of which I was not in possession. I am unable to tell him of the cost. My noble friend asks when the Government will summon up sufficient courage. I remind him of a fact that may have temporarily escaped his notice. In 1986 we summoned up enough courage to produce a Bill. It was passed by your Lordships but thrown out by another place. Quite frankly, until another place is prepared to accept proposals it is unlikely that the government of the day will produce them. Perhaps I may suggest to my noble friend that rather than having a go at the Government his efforts would be better directed towards persuading his friends in another place to reach agreement so that when a Bill is introduced they pass it.
§ Lord Murray of Epping ForestMy Lords, when will the Government summon up the courage to give effect to the clear ruling given by Mr. Justice Hoffmann that the law is being properly carried out and that all that is lacking is will on the part of the Government to enforce it?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, it is not for the Government to enforce the law but the courts. As far as I know, the courts do their best to enforce the law as it stands.
§ Viscount CaldecoteMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that during 1990 there were more than 250 successful prosecutions for illegal Sunday trading?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, that is an interesting statistic but I am not sure what one draws from it. However, I am now aware of the fact.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I am overcome with flattery by his answer and the suggestion that I have more influence over those in another place than Her Majesty's Government? However agreeable I may find that proposition, it is not true.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, it is surprising how, with a little persistence, people's characters change during their lives. Perhaps the noble Lord will find his character changing and will discover that he has more power over those in another place than at present he suspects.
§ Lord AiredaleMy Lords, if with tongue in cheek a local authority were to prosecute a cathedral bookshop for selling a bible on a Sunday, what would the magistrates be expected to do?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, the magistrates' job would be to carry out the law as it stands. As the noble Lord asked a hypothetical question I do not propose to give an answer.
§ Lord RichardMy Lords, the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is based on the premise that the English law on the subject conflicts with the law of the Community. I have a letter in front of me signed by the Attorney-General which states that a recent decision given by Mr. Justice Hoffmann has made it clear that the Shops Act provisions applying to Sunday trading are entirely consistent with this country's obligations under EC law. Are they consistent or are they not?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, it is for the courts to interpret the law as it stands. It is a matter for the European Court to decide its judgment. Whatever the law, its enforcement is a matter for local authorities. It is for them to decide how best to discharge their duties under Section 71 of the Shops Act.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, under Article 177 of the Treaty of Rome, is it not possible for the courts to ask the opinion of the Luxembourg court about whether our law is consistent with the treaty?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, that is true. Under Article 177 any court can seek further clarification from the European Court in interpreting the Treaty of Rome. Of course, the courts did so and, to paraphrase, the European Court stated that the United Kingdom law is not necessarily in breach of the Treaty of Rome. It depends on particular circumstances whether there is a socio-economic justification for a law which would reasonably permit a reduction in imports in consequence. The European Court states that it is for the local courts to determine in each case.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, would it help my noble friend to form a view on the legality of the question to know that a recent High Court decision by Mr. Justice Hoffmann has made it clear that the Shops Act provisions applying to Sunday trading are entirely 195 consistent with this country's obligations under EC law and that this has been endorsed by his right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, my noble friend asked whether the information would be of help. I can tell him that anything would be of help. I am grateful to him for having produced that fact.