Sunday Trading: Restrictions (Hansard, 21 May 1990)

The Minister of State, Home office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, although the majority of member states in the Community have some restrictions on Sunday trading, the detailed information which my noble friend requests is not readily available.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that not particularly communicative reply. However, can he tell us whether any of our European colleagues reproduce that provision in our law under which it is lawful to sell a pornographic magazine on a Sunday but a criminal offence to sell a Bible?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it is difficult enough to know what the law of this country is without knowing what the law of each individual Community country is. We agree that the present position is an absurdity whereby you can buy such things as my noble frend suggested, yet you cannot buy other things.

§ Viscount Caldecote
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, although we are all in favour—I believe that there has been wide agreement on this matter—of removing the absurd anomalies to which my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter referred, West Germany, the Netherlands and Italy have prohibitions, similar to those provided for by the Shops Act 1950, on shops opening on Sundays and that there are effective ways of enforcing the laws in those countries?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that may be so. We have effective ways of enforcing the laws of this country too—by going to the courts.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that another place, which is answerable to the people as a whole in this land, rejected out of hand a proposal to make Sunday like any other day? Will he also bear in mind that a great many people in this land hope that no government will ever make Sunday lose its special distinction as a reminder that this is still a Christian land?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am only too well aware of the noble Viscount's view of what happened to the shops Bill about four years ago. That is the reason why the Government have no intention of producing another Bill until such time as it is likely to prove practical and enforceable, and until it carries widespread agreement and a parliamentary majority.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as a member of God's holy opposition, may I ask my noble friend whether the campaign lobbying against the proposed reforms of the shops Bill some years ago was not among the most disreputable and ridiculous which Christian Churches, which are unable to agree about almost anything, managed to put on.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that is a peculiarly graphic description of the Bill's passage through another place with which I have no intention of joining in.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I buy anything that I need on Sundays without the shops concerned breaking the law because my Sundays are spent at home in Scotland where there are no restrictions; but Sunday is nonetheless special and in my area the churches are full?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that is an interesting piece of information on which I would not seek to disagree with my noble friend. Perhaps one day that will happen in this country.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister take on board the fact that those who advocate complete deregulation of shopping on a Sunday fly in the face of the opinion of the people of this country? Is he aware that, although those people seek to use the device of making comparisons with the rest of Europe, other EC states overwhelmingly proscribe an ability to sell anything at any time on a Sunday? Does the noble Earl agree that, if this country were to deregulate on a Sunday, it would be an exception to the European rule?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I understand the opposition which might be generated by complete deregulation. The noble Lord says that all European countries have restrictions. I can confirm that there are restrictions on trading on Sundays in Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. On the other hand, it is absurd when you can sell a razor blade to cut corns, but you cannot sell one for shaving and you can buy newspapers, but you cannot buy toilet paper. Noble Lords will recall that, as I have said before, you can sell tinned or untinned clotted cream and untinned unclotted cream, but not tinned unclotted cream. It is an absurdity.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the Minister accept that there are no instructions on my razor blades when I buy them as to what I should use them for?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the obligation is on the seller and not the purchaser.

The Lord Bishop of St. Albans
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that using anomalies cheapens arguments? Does he further agree with the view of the Church of England board for social responsibility which argues that the prime consideration is that we should work for freedom from work on Sunday rather than freedom to work on Sunday?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for drawing attention to the points made by the Church of England on this matter. I should be reluctant to comment for fear that I receive a riposte from some other noble Lord. However, I realise that that is one very substantial and important part of a diverse argument.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that a law riddled with anomalies, absurdities and contradictions does nothing whatever to reinforce or support the Christian idea of Sunday but merely reflects the bad system that we operate and which your Lordships' House, unlike another place, was prepared to alter a short time ago?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I quite agree that when a law is riddled with absurdities it is very difficult to make it make sense. My noble friend will understand that he takes one view and the right reverend Prelate takes another. We have had this argument before. Until there is a parliamentary majority for any Bill it is pointless to try to put the matter right. If my noble friend lobbies vigorously the right reverend Prelate and all those who take an opposing view to see whether some accommodation can be reached with his own view, we may get somewhere.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, is it not an additional complication that whereas Christians keep the Sabbath on Sunday, Jews keep it on Saturday and Moslems on Friday?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, one should not ask a question from this Dispatch Box, but I was going to say, "So what?"