HL Deb 18 May 1990 vol 519 cc472-4

11.19 a.m.

Baroness Nicol asked Her Majesty's Government:

How proper management of the Upper Solway special protection area will be ensured following the break-up of the Nature Conservancy Council, since one side of the estuary is in Scotland and the other in England.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, the provisions of Clause 129 of and Schedule 10 to the Environmental Protection Bill, currently before the House, set out how the Government propose to deal with areas of importance for wildlife which are designated under existing legislation and which straddle the boundaries between England and Scotland, or England and Wales.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, will the Minister tell us what mechanism will be available to ensure that grants are still available to landowners on either side of the estuary? Will he also tell us whether there will be co-ordination to ensure that the same level of grant is: available on both sides?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the new councils over the years that lie ahead of them will obviously perceive what they feel is best on a country by country basis. However, I am sure that we shall be discussing this matter further and more intensively later in the day. I can assure the noble Baroness that the Bill requires the councils concerned to consult with each other before exercising their functions in respect of sites which have been divided between two countries. In fact there is a permissive power in the Bill that allows joint activity to be conducted over a site if the two councils are minded to do so.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, will this situation not be similar to those in other fields which have been handled over many years both on the Tweed and Solway by Scottish and English bodies working closely together? Can the Minister confirm that the National Rivers Authority which, despite its name, functions in England and Wales is now co-operating with its Scottish counterparts on both the Tweed and the Solway?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend; he is absolutely correct. Arrangements concerning the countryside, rivers and many other spheres—particularly as we live in a wider Europe—have to operate across borders and physical features too.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

My Lords, is the Minister aware that 700,000 hectares of Scotland have now been designated as protected areas? That virtually sterilises the 700,000 hectares, and there is no appeal. Is he further aware that this is causing great concern in Scotland and emphasises the need for the administration of such matters to be in Scottish hands?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord's use of the term "sterilisation". However, I understand the point that he makes. No doubt later today he will be reinforcing it.

Lord Renton

My Lords, may I, as one who expressed serious misgivings when we discussed the splitting up of the Nature Conservancy Council, say how much I welcome the Government's decision to have this joint committee to co-ordinate the activities of the councils for England, Scotland and Wales?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's remarks and look forward to hearing his views later today.

Baroness David

My Lords, in the past the Government have given undertakings that if a management agreement has been made the funds will be available. Can the Minister tell me whether that undertaking will be honoured?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I believe that that is so, but I am not sure whether it is right given the exact form in which the noble Baroness put the question. On the basis that I believe it is so I shall say yes. I shall write to her if I am incorrect.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House what discussion he had with his noble friend Lord Sanderson of Bowden before it was decided who should answer this Question? Can he say whether discussions took place between the Scottish Office and the Department of the Environment and, if so, at what level of acrimony on the Richter scale they could be measured?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to answer any Question tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol. We fought to have the honour to answer it.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, arising from the last question, does the Minister agree that the key to these matters is that every government decision on the environment in Scotland is taken by the Secretary of State for Scotland and that any attempt to try to subtract powers from the Secretary of State for Scotland at present would be entirely unrealistic?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, we are not proposing to do so.