The Baltic States and Lithuanian Government (Hansard, 1 May 1990)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, we have never recognised the legality of the incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union in 1940. The question of the recognition of Lithuania as a state is, however, a separate issue. Lithuania does not at present satisfy the long-standing criteria which we apply to the recognition of a state.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this morning in Red Square thousands of demonstrators demanded the immediate return of independence to Lithuania and the Baltic States and the ending of the illegal blockage, and booed Mr. Gorbachev off the May Day platform? Also, can we not send some encouragement to Lithuania and the Baltic States and stop urging them to give in to whatever Mr. Gorbachev wants in the way that we told Czechoslovakia to give in to Hitler? Can we not at least send some humanitarian supplies to Lithuania to lift the blockade, because Lithuania is still a sovereign nation and we have never said that it is anything else?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, although I have not yet seen the film of the demonstrations, I am aware of what took place in Red Square this morning. We and our Western allies are deeply concerned about the future of Lithuania but nobody, including the Lithuanians, would profit from a deterioration in East-West relations at a stage when crucial negotiations on European security are taking place. We underline the need for a purposeful dialogue between the two parties aimed at reaching an agreement acceptable to all concerned.
As regards aid, the EC is keeping in close touch with partners over possible responses to the current situation.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while we sympathise with the aspirations of the Lithuanian people, we recognise also the difficulties which confront President Gorbachev. We further recognise that Lithuania would not be in a position to seek independence today were it not for the policies of Mr. Gorbachev over the past four years. Can the noble Lord say what diplomatic steps Her Majesty's Government have taken with the United States in particular, which is independently seeking a compromise, and through the European Community?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition said in the first part of his question. Of course we should not be in the present situation were it not for the recent measures which Mr. Gorbachev has taken.
As regards consultation with the United States and our other allies, we are keeping in close and regular contact with our allies and European partners as the situation develops. The most recent statement by the Irish presidency on behalf of the Twelve was made on 21st April followed by a demarche by the Irish ambassador in Moscow. That was at our initiative. I assure noble Lords that we are keeping in close touch not only with our partners in the EC but also with the United States as to what is happening there.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that in spite of all the honeyed words he has used it is time that we took a lead on this issue and made ourselves more purposeful over the matter of Lithuania? My noble friend says that the long-standing criteria have not been reached. Can he explain what are the long-standing criteria?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I was referring to the criteria for the recognition of states. As I said, that applies to the recognition of Lithuania as an independent state. Those criteria are that a state should have and should seem likely to continue to have clearly defined territory with a population, a government who are able to exercise control over that territory and independence in their external relations.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that Her Majesty's Government should associate themselves with the initiatives taken by Mr. Mitterrand and Mr. Kohl in which they suggested that negotiations were the right way out of this particularly difficult problem? Does he also agree that in the case of independent movements within the USSR to which President Gorbachev has given his assent, structured independence by means of negotiation is the right way forward rather than unilateral declarations?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I agree with the latter part of the noble Lord's question. The letter from Chancellor Kohl and President Mitterrand reflects the wishes of the West to see a constructive dialogue started as soon as possible. Both sides must move if that is to happen; and we certainly agree with the sentiments expressed in that letter.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, in addition to what the Minister has already said, perhaps I may ask this question. Will he take the opportunity of reminding the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, that if the Soviet Union had not occupied Lithuania in 1939, it is highly likely that the Nazis would have won World War II and we probably would not be sitting here discussing Lithuanian independence or anything else?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not certain that I wish to indulge in that sort of speculation. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, heard the question from the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins; but I do not intend to comment on it.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, as the Government of the Soviet Union have at last admitted to lying when they said that the Nazis massacred the Polish officers at Katyn, can we not persuade them to admit that they are lying when they say that the rape of the Baltic States by agreement with Hitler did not end the sovereignty of those nations which at the time were members of the League of Nations?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, we have never recognised the legality of the incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union in 1940. The Soviet Union is well aware of our attitude to that matter.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, bearing in mind that many of us can remember the events of that time, perhaps I may say this. We are not so concerned with the Government of the Soviet Union in the years 1940 until 1945, but with the tremendous effort the Soviet people made in support of us. The support that we had from America and the Soviet Union contributed to the destruction of Nazi Germany. Bearing in mind that Mr. Gorbachev has softened his sanctions, encouraged by President Bush, ought we not to recognise that and, together with the Americans, continue to make sensible representations to President Gorbachev in order to help him and thus ultimately all the Baltic States?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, there is much that I agree with in what the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, says. We should like to see Lithuania regain its independence, which was illegally taken away in 1940. The best way to do that is by peaceful negotiation with President Gorbachev and the Soviet Union. The fact that Lithuania is in difficulty at the moment with the blockades and so on, proves that it is no: that simple just to declare independence.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us regard the suggestion that the Soviet occupation of Lithuania in 1939-40 was crucial to the Allied victory in World War II is as far fetched as the comparison between Hitler in 1938-39 and Mr. Gorbachev today?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we shall be best occupied in looking to the present time and the future rather than going back into the history to which the noble Lord referred.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords——

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords——

Noble Lords
Order! Cross-Benches!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, would like to ask his question; he has tried to ask it many times. The noble Viscount can then ask his question, and then perhaps the House will move on.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House. Is it not the case that the Soviet constitution permits constituent republics to secede, and has permitted that for decades? Are we therefore discussing not whether Lithuania has the right to secede, but what is the best and most peaceful way to do that? Given the fact that the first action the Lithuanian Government took after proclaiming its secession was to ask all Lithuanian soldiers in the Soviet army in Lithuania to leave the Soviet army and join a national Lithuanian army, it would have been extremely difficult for Moscow to do anything except what it did.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not sure that I can comment on the details which the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, asked in his question. It is true that there is the possibility of secession under the law of the Soviet Union, and that is the path which Lithuania should be adopting.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, has the noble Lord noticed the similarity to the occasion when Russia invaded Finland? Then the United States said that it sympathised and the Finnish ambassador in Washington, in somewhat unambassadorial frame, said how pleased he was that the United States, with its vast resources of men, money and materials had sent its sympathy.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am sure that that is of great interest to the House. I do not think that we are in a position to take any military action to assist the Lithuanians, even if we wished to do so.