HL Deb 27 March 1990 vol 517 cc814-20

7.50 p.m.

Lord Skelmersdale rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th March be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will agree that it is of crucial importance, if Northern Ireland is to win and sustain a place in today's ever more competitive world, that it capitalises on the resourcefulness, adaptability and skills of its people. There is increasing evidence to suggest that, whereas Northern Ireland has invested heavily in what we might call the "hardware" to increase competitiveness—that is, the capital plant and equipment—noticeably less investment has been made in the competence of the workforce at both shopfloor and managerial level. Without a competent workforce, however, the Province cannot hope to match increasingly sophisticated competitors who are giving training the highest priority.

Though Northern Ireland possesses a substantial education and training resource which includes grammar and secondary schools, 26 colleges of further education, two universities, 12 training colleges, eight industrial training boards, the Northern Ireland Training Authority, a youth training programme and, for adults, the job training programme, and a range of grants aimed at encouraging training within companies, the system has simply not delivered the goods. It has not been as effective as it needs to be to match our competitors.

The fragmented system of training arrangements involving 10 statutory training authorities—that is, the eight industrial training boards, NITA and the Department of Economic Development—has led to a system lacking in cohesion, co-ordination and leadership. In short, we have a system without the kudos and credibility to ensure effective action. Because of its cumbersome nature the system has been slow to grasp and take up new opportunities and there has been considerable doubt, reinforced by research carried out by the Department of Economic Development about the effectiveness of industrial training board levies in funding worthwhile training.

Hence, the need for this order is a consequence of the Government's decision to establish a single statutory new employment and training organisation within the Department of Economic Development, which will be known as the Training and Employment Agency. This Next Steps agency will embrace the training functions of the Department of Economic Development, the industrial training boards, and the Northern Ireland Training Authority. I am happy to say that, when the proposal for the draft order was published, the responses were generally supportive. As a result of further discussion, it was decided to include the Employment Service in the new organisation in recognition of its important role in the administration of services and as a source of information at local level throughout the Province.

Further details of the proposed arrangements were published by the department in March 1989 in the position paper Training and Employment Services in Northern Ireland. Both these documents were made widely available by the department.

I would only add that powers to create the new body are already on this statute book by virtue of the Employment and Training Act (Northern Ireland) 1950. The need for this order is occasioned by the decision to wind up the organisations I have mentioned and to transfer their functions to the new body. I believe that the individual articles and schedule are self-explanatory, though I am beginning to doubt my powers of perception after the last debate between the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and myself. I beg to move.

Moved, that the draft order laid before the House on 14th March be approved.—(Lord Skelmersdale.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for his explanation of this fairly technical but nevertheless important order. From the inquiries which I have made from trade unionists in Northern Ireland, it seems that there may be mixed feelings about the value of this order though it is fair to say that, on balance, they give it a cautious welcome.

Some trade unionists fear that it may be a decisive step towards the deregulation of the industrial training boards. Others are gratified, to put it at its mildest, that the order has not gone further along the road of privatisation of the eight industrial boards. There is complete agreement among trade unionists in Northern Ireland on one point—that there has been inadequate consultation with the relevant trade unions.

I understand that an impression has been given by the department, which came to be widely believed, that this was the way in which matters were to go and that the department had made up its mind. The changes had to be carried out. If that is a correct impression, that obviously is not consultation. I read somewhere that the Permanent Secretary has apologised to the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance for failing to consult prior to the issue of the outline staffing structure. One can give many other examples of a lack of consultation. We say from these Benches that the department should consult as much as possible when changes involving people are in train.

I now turn to the order. There are five questions, or possibly a group of questions, that I wish to ask the Minister. I apologise to him for not having given him notice of these questions as I should have done. I had not completed my researches until this morning. First, I shall be interested to learn whether all the staff currently employed by the Northern Ireland Training Authority and the eight training boards have the right to be transferred to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Thereafter, have they the right to be transferred and to apply for posts within the Civil Service? Will this right be available at a later stage to those four boards which are not now being dissolved but which may be wound up in the future? That point should be cleared up.

In passing. I mention that it is a cause of some concern that so many employees of the boards are opting for redundancy and not opting to be transferred to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Obviously that may deprive the service of valuable skills and experience.

Secondly, can the Minister tell the House how the work now carried out by the Northern Ireland Training Authority and the four industrial boards will be undertaken within the department? Will there be a separate agency within the department? If that is so, will it have separate funds? Will it be publishing annual reports which can be scrutinised by the public? What will be the rank of its chief executive? Can the Minister also say to whom he will be accountable?

Thirdly, I turn to a matter which may have some constitutional significance. I understand that the Minister for the economy has already appointed the members of the advisory committee. He has appointed the chairman and determined the salaries. I understand that an announcement may be made within the course of the next few days. I ask the Minister on what authority his colleague has made these appointments. Is the Northern Ireland Office in a position to place in the Library a copy of the constitution and functions of the advisory committee? If it is not, then surely this committee cannot possibly function. Would it not be inappropriate to make appointments and to determine its chairman and the salaries?

Fourthly, I understand that the Minister has appointed 12 members of the advisory committee, though I doubt the validity of those appointments. Of the 12 members, only two are trade union representatives compared with five from business and industry. Would it not have been advisable to have parity of representation so that the disussions between the two social partners are not dominated by one side?

Fifthly, is the noble Lord able to indicate to the House what part of the £112 million coming from the EC during the period 1989 to 1993 will be made available for industrial training in Northern Ireland?I should ackowledge the fact that it was my noble friend Lord Blease who reminded me earlier in the day of this funding. If I may return to an old and very familiar issue, will the EC funding be treated as additional to Exchequer resources?

I have no more questions for the Minister. After 11 years of a Conservative Government it is still the sad case that Northern Ireland suffers severely from skill shortages. We have referred to this issue when discussing a number of appropriation orders. It must be our hope that this order will greatly improve industrial training for young people in the Province, that it will be of benefit to all those who require training and that it will benefit and strengthen the basis of the Northern Ireland economy. We want the order to be a success.

8 p.m.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I assure him that no apology for not giving me prior warning of his questions is necessary.

It would, however, be fair to warn him that I may have to write to him on this occasion with the answers to one or two of his questions.

I tried to express earlier that with the establishment of the agency we shall have one statutory training organisation which will provide clear leadership and a co-ordinated approach to training and employment in Northern Ireland, something which the noble Lord agrees is necessary. The department considers that the continuation of other statutory bodies would dilute this role and perpetuate the fragmented approach about which I spoke earlier.

I should like straightaway to comment on the possibility of training being privatised. Although the noble Lord did not put it in so many words, I suspect that is what he wants to know about. Privatisation is not the major issue. My honourable friend is seeking to find the most effective and efficient way of ensuring that training needs are indeed met. He believes, however, that the private sector can continue to play an important role and therefore most certainly does not rule out privatisation where that is sensible. But it is not an objective.

The noble Lord asked about staff. The staff of the current training organisation and those training boards which have announced their intention to dissolve will have a clear choice between applying for voluntary redundancy and transferring into the training and employment agency. Since the terms attaching to either option have been clearly spelt out, it is unnecessary to make specific provision in the order regarding the terms and conditions of service in the agency for transferred staff over and above the existing statutory safeguards.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, what is the position of staff employed by training boards who have not at this stage opted for transfer to the department but may in future opt for their functions to be transferred to the department? Will the staff employed by those training boards be eligible for transfer to the Northern Ireland Civil Service?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, if the noble Lord would be prepared to contain his soul in patience for just a little longer, I think that in my rather roundabout way I shall be able to address that point. I was talking about the staff. Approximately 1,700 staff will be in the new agency. I can give the noble Lord liter, if I may be allowed to, a list of those organisations from which they are emanating.

On transfers to the department, the former authority and training board staff will become civil servants and will be employed under the normal Northern Ireland Civil Service terms and conditions of service. Where necessary, transitional arrangements will be offered. I am not sure whether I have told the noble Lord that the staff of the old training organisation and the six industrial training boards have been or will be offered a choice of either a job with the agency at current terms and conditions or voluntary redundancy. The remaining two boards—the construction board and the road transport board—will be reviewed in two years' time.

The noble Lord asked about the constitution of the new agency. This is contained in a framework document which will be published. The noble Lord was interested in the chairman and members of the board, announced by my honourable friend yesterday. The best thing I can do is give the noble Lord the list. If he prefers, I can arrange for it to be published in the Official Report.

The noble Lord was concerned that this may be an unusual way to behave. It is not unusual to have a board in waiting, as it were.

Lord Prys-Davies

A shadow board, my Lords.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I do not believe that my honourable friend has conducted himself in any way improperly in that regard.

The noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that any European funding which we attract for this purpose or indeed any other will be treated under current procedures for handling European Community money.

Baroness White

My Lords, can the noble Lord make this perfectly clear? Did I understand him to say that this will be treated with the usual parsimony of the Treasury as additionality?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords. I regret to say that that is the answer.

The noble Lord asked about the constitution of the board. The advisory board is established under Section 1 of the Employment and Training Act 1950, to which I referred earlier. No constitution order has been made as this is optional under the Act, which of course is being amended by this order.

To sum up, I hope that the House will share my enthusiasm for and commitment to training in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord quite clearly does. I believe that through its close links with industry, through its advisory board and through its work with a number of sectoral representative groups which will determine training standards for industry and generally represent its needs, we can create a strong partnership between the Province's education and training providers and industry, and in so doing make a more constructive use of what are major and costly resources. In short, we wish to create a prestigious organisation which can attract the enthusiastic support of the Province's industry.

The Government consider that this agency can make an important and long-lasting improvement to the benefit of the economy of the Province. I cannot emphasise too strongly the importance of ensuring that the skills of the population are developed and utilised to the fullest extent so that we can maximise our ability to compete in the dynamically changing Europe of the 1990s.

I shall study Hansard very carefully because it is quite likely that I failed to answer one or more of the noble Lord's questions. As he is poised to intervene, which I should be delighted for him to do, perhaps he will indicate at that moment whether he would like the list to be published in the Official Report.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for responding to most of the questions I raised. However, he has not indicated or explained why we should only have two trade union representatives on the board whereas there are five representatives from industry. Perhaps he can explain the reason for this formula?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the purpose of the board is to be responsible for advising the Minister and the agency's chief executive who, incidentally, will be answerable to the Minister, on the formulation and implementation of training and employment policy and for seeking increased collaboration between employers and the agency. I believe that that is the real reason for there being a preponderance of employer representatives on the board as opposed to trade union representatives.

As I understand it, the representatives have not been chosen—and I shall write to the noble Lord on this point if I am wrong—on the basis of what they represent. They have been chosen for what they can offer. I am advised that the agency's board will comprise a maximum of 12 members who will be appointed according to their expertise and general ability to contribute to the work of the agency. Therefore, there is no ulterior motive in the breakdown which—dare I say—the noble Lord implied in his intervention.

I return now to my pleasure in being able to introduce this order to the House. I believe that the training and employment agency will achieve far more than the existing procedural arrangements for the training needs of Northern Ireland in a very competitive world.

Lord Blease

My Lords, if I heard the noble Lord correctly, in replying to the noble Baroness, Lady White, in relation to additionality he said that he regretted to say—though I think he meant to say that he regretted to mention—that additionality was the answer. Perhaps he will read the Hansard report of the proceedings to see whether I am correct.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I may well have said what the noble Lord, Lord Blease, has just suggested. However, I was responding to the noble Baroness in terms in which I suspect she was thinking that there was no intended criticism in my statement of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues.

Baroness White

My Lords, that is regrettable because the whole exercise in additionality is something about which some of us fail to agree.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, indeed that may be so. I have had some years' experience of exchanging views both in public and in private with the noble Baroness, Lady White.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Viscount Long

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.35 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 8.12 to 8.35 p.m.]