Community Charge (Hansard, 27 March 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)
My Lords, in England and Wales, where a property is unoccupied because the owner has died, no standard charge is payable until three months after the grant of probate or letters of administration. Local authorities have the discretion to extend the period of relief beyond three months. Copies of the relevant order and explanatory information were sent to all charging authorities in England and Wales. In Scotland, as from 1st April 1990 the standard charge will not be payable for the first six months that a property is vacant as a result of the death of the occupant.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that in Scotland the standard charge is imposed from the day after a death, before relatives are able to go through personal possessions or dispose of furniture? Is he further aware that what was thought to be a set charge on second homes when the legislation was 735 before this House is becoming an instant tax on empty buildings and that the amount is usually twice the previous domestic rates?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend is encouraged by the information which I provided about the situation from 1st April 1990. That answers the problem that he faced in the Highland region, but the matter is at the discretion of the local authority.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have an example from Devon where a house was left after the death of one person and the community charge has been issued on two people?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in each case the local authority has an option to charge on five bands from zero to two. If it decides to charge at the rate of two, as happened in respect of the property in Devon, it is on the basis of its discretion. It is the case that after probate or letters of administration have been granted there is a further three months when no charge can be levied.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister endeavouring to bring into harmony all such legislation between Scotland and England? Further, will he say that any changes in English legislation will be retrospective in their application in Scotland?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I have never been able to aspire to be a writer to the signet. However, there are differences between the legal systems north and south of the Border. I believe that there is no probate or letters of administration under Scottish law and therefore there is an anomaly. I know that many of your Lordships would defend the Scottish legal system to the death, but under it on this occasion it would be difficult to have an interface—to use a terrible word—because of the two different legal systems.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, while in no way deviating from the principle behind the community charge, which is sound and fair, does my noble friend agree that this is an anomaly which will be examined when a revision takes place next year in order to straighten out some of the quirks which will arise?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the Government have never suggested that they wished to tamper with the laws of Scotland, so there will always be anomalies.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, can the Minister say whether the legislation which he says will apply in 1990 will be retrospective in Scotland, and if not, why not?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as with so many policies introduced by all governments, a modification to legislation is not always retrospective.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that his announcement that there will be a code on both sides of the Border from April 1990 is welcome? However, is he also aware that 736 England and Wales are benefiting from the experience of Scotland during the past year? Will he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to give guidance to local authorities there about how to deal with the cases which have arisen during the past few months and with which they are still grappling?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, of course I shall draw my noble friend's remarks to the attention of my right honourable friend. However, it is important to remind the House that before the introduction of the community charge, if a property remained furnished, rates were payable from the time the occupant died. The proposals now before the House are an improvement in terms of fiscal loss.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, is this not one more example of the growing absurdity of the standard community charge? It is now clear that it will discriminate against student nurses as compared with trainees in the armed forces. It will also discriminate against single mature students and those in long-term stay in hospital. Can the Minister name a single day during the past month when a new absurdity in the concept of the charge was not revealed?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that if we were about to introduce a system of rating there would be howls of protest about the levels of discrimination that cannot be conceived under the community charge.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that in a failing property market it is not always possible to sell a house in six months or even longer?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I point out to the noble Lady that under the previous rating system, rates were payable from the estate from the date of death. What has happened now is an improvement because there will be a six-month period which will be community charge free.

§ Viscount Mountgarret
My Lords, when a property became unoccupied there was six months' leeway during which no rates were paid. Will not the same apply to the community charge?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the situation at present under the current arrangements is that a period of administration plus three months will be allowed, which in most cases will probably equate to six months or more.