North Sea: Pollution (Hansard, 23 March 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)
My Lords, the United Kingdom published its action plan on reducing inputs of dangerous substances via rivers and estuaries into the North Sea on 5th March. It shows good progress, with reductions of 31 per cent. in mercury, 22 per cent. in cadmium and 15 per cent. in lindane between 1985 and 1988. The UK fully expects to achieve the 50 per cent. target by 1995, as agreed at the Second North Sea Conference.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. As most of the worst of the pollution which comes from rivers entering the North Sea is difficult to observe or detect, in contrast to dumping from ships, do adequate arrangements for monitoring rivers exist in all the countries concerned?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, at present the figures for pollutants currently carried by major rivers into the North Sea are monitored by each North Sea state according to its own requirements. The standards and methodology vary considerably. Some surveys have attempted to make a comparison on a common basis. The first comprehensive exercise will take place this year, co-ordinated by the Paris Commission.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, on this bright spring morning, with such good news coming to us from Lichfield in Staffordshire, will the Minister and his colleagues reflect that it was the attitude to environmental matters which they adopted hitherto as much as the poll tax which brought the spectacular victory for Labour yesterday? Will the Minister tell the House what the Government have in mind in terms of providing support for local authorities which are likely to be affected by the changes in the Government's policy?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is an inevitable fact that the cleaning up of all countries will cost money which will be a burden on the taxpayer. There is no such thing as a free lunch for the authorities, just as there is no such thing as a free lunch for anyone else when it comes to cleaning up the environment.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there will be clear evidence of the amount of pollution emerging into the North Sea from the Rhine and the Elbe? Will that result from the inquiries to which he referred?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is very important that in all cases the establishment of pollution is carried out on a like basis. We hope very much that for the first time we shall be able to establish who is doing what. The most recent Dutch study confirmed that the Rhine and the Elbe contribute about 65 per cent. of North Sea pollution.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, can the Minister explain the procedures which in a few months turned the Thames, which 15 years ago was one of the dirtiest rivers, into the cleanest river in Europe? Why cannot that process be applied to all of our rivers so that other countries can emulate our good behaviour?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am afraid that it is true that even though the appearance of our rivers has improved— and what the noble Lord said of the Thames is also true of the Tyne— in this country there are still residual problems which cannot be removed because they lie within the ground itself.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the other North Sea riparian states are yet satisfied with the methodology employed by the riparian states of the Rhine and the Elbe in ascertaining and controlling pollution?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I hope that the comprehensive exercise to be undertaken by the Paris Commission, to which I referred earlier, will provide exactly what my noble friend asks for.

Lord Harrington
My Lords, arising from the very hopeful and constructive answers which my noble friend has given this morning, will he give an undertaking that in four, five or six months' time— without being asked, because I am sure that he will have good news— he will advise the House what improvements have been achieved between this day and that?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, there is a difficulty in giving such an undertaking. The method of checking river discharges and establishing that they relate to a particular river are rather complex. I can give my noble friend further updated figures. I shall be more than happy to write to him since I have several sheets in front of me which I believe noble Lords will not thank me for reading ad nauseam.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord said in answer to a supplementary question that the cleaning up of rivers costs the taxpayer money. Has he read the report of David Pearce, who is adviser to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, in which he suggests that, rather than the taxpayer having to pay, it is the polluter and the polluting company who should pay for any pollution that is discharged into rivers?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am well aware of the report to which the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has drawn my attention. However, I fear that he may not have listened with his usual accuracy to the remark that I made. I referred to assistance to local authorities rather than to the general principle. In the case of the local authorities the money would come from the taxpayer.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it emerged from reports in the press and media that at the recent Community ministerial conference attended by Mr. Patten our partners in the Community were blaming Britain and saying that Britain was the chief offender? From the exchanges that we have had in this House and the answers from the noble Lord it appears that that is not the case and that the evidence shows that we are at least as good as our partners in the Community, and especially those who discharge into the Elbe and the Rhine. In those circumstances what steps are Her Majesty's Government taking to set the record straight and to make it clear that the statistical evidence is published so that we are not excoriated in that way in future?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am grateful for that point. This is a matter of national pride. I hope that at the Paris Commission we shall for the first time obtain some proper, like-on-like, figures. Many comments have been made, but the figures behind them are rather dubious. If we are to be good Europeans, it is most important that we are all good Europeans together.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, will the noble Lord make sure that his department is aware of the lines from Coleridge which state: The river Rhine, it is well known, Doth wash your City of Cologne; But tell me, Nymphs! what power divine Shall henceforth wash the river Rhine?"?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it will be interesting to see whether Mr. Ripa di Meana will be the new publisher of that work when it is reissued in Europe.