North Sea Conference: Government Policy (Hansard, 14 March 1990)

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the United Kingdom has been privileged to make a very constructive contribution to The Hague Conference, and the measures already announced and agreed at the conference will ensure that the North Sea is a cleaner and more wholesome sea.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Lord address himself to two issues that were raised at the conference: first, the dumping of industrial effluents in the North Sea, which I understand the Government have promised to halt by the end of 1998, and secondly, the disposal of nuclear waste under the sea bed?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the United Kingdom made a number of commitments at The Hague, and it made those commitments in an important context which noble Lords should understand. We are a major industrial nation. We have been accused on some fronts of not showing the desired amount of consideration. I should point out that the accusation has been made by countries which are not major industrial nations.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Lord answer my questions? I have asked two specific questions on two specific issues that were raised at The Hague last week. What is the Government's policy on those two specific issues?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the United Kingdom's position is very straightforward and simple. We have to provide a sensible solution. We shall end all sewage sludge dumping by 1998. We are reducing such dumping where we can. Most important of all, we accept that we have to find a solution. The noble Lord may question the Government's position with regard to nuclear waste. I should remind him that Sweden is also engaged at this moment in having radioactive waste buried under the sea.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is considerable satisfaction over the arrangements made at the conference—made, I understand, at the initiative of the United Kingdom—to help the conservation of dolphins and porpoises? This is the first time that such arrangements have been made at any of these North Sea Conferences.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely correct. The Government have felt for some time that not enough attention has been paid to wildlife. We are very satisfied with the result, particularly, as he pointed out, with regard to dolphins and porpoises.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, if there has been any meaningful change at the conference it must surely call for major consultation by the Government with those who are the prime sources of pollution. Can the Minister say what steps the Government have taken to ensure that there is meaningful change in the practices of industrialists? What effect will the changes have on the practices of local authorities? Have the views been sought of the main conservation bodies, which have played a major part in encouraging the clean-up of the North Sea?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I have had the privilege of attending meetings held by the Secretary of State with industrialists to discuss exactly the point raised by the noble Lord. I am sure that he is aware that environmentalists are to be seen within the portals of Marsham Street and that their advice has been sought in the past and will no doubt be sought again in the future.
The noble Lord asked about local authorities. I do not have a specific answer to his question but certain regulations will be the outcome of various decisions that are made in the process of cleaning the planet, if I may use such a phrase, which of course will affect local authorities. They will have to be kept abreast of matters.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the conference will result in a reduction of the major source of pollution of the North Sea, which is the output of the Rhine?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is fair to say that sometimes—and quite wrongly—the United Kingdom is accused of being the dirty man of Europe. In fact, the evidence has to be turned to the estuaries of the Rhine, the Elbe, the Meuse and the Scheldt.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, it was reported at the conference that the United Kingdom had failed to carry out the terms of the signed agreement to stop dumping in the North Sea by the end of 1989. Can the noble Lord tell us when that failure was reported to Parliament? Were we told in advance that the Government were not going to carry out the terms of an international agreement which they had signed?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I do not have the exact date in this respect. However, I shall certainly provide the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, with a letter which will answer his question. The British Government have always taken the position of practicality. We are committed to the abolition of dumping by 1992 because that will be both practical and feasible.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, in continuation of a question asked earlier from this side of the House, is there any truth in the press report that no less than 80 per cent. of pollution is from the Rhine and the Elbe and therefore that whatever we may do, even if we were to stop altogether, it will not make much difference? Surely all efforts in this connection must be directed towards that 80 per cent., quite apart from anything that we may do.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, we must not in any way slow up our efforts in order to provide a solution to our problems. It is absolutely correct, as my noble friend said, that 80 per cent. of the pollution does not come from the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord speaks of the British Government acting on "practicality". Does that mean that they put practicality before their own signed word of 1987, when they agreed to finish all industrial dumping in the North Sea by the end of 1989? Is he aware that this is the first of such conferences which has not been unanimous and that there had to be a footnote added to the declaration for a British option to continue? Is he further aware that when he talks about the reputation of Britain it was the Danish Environment Minister who said: The United Kingdom position is unacceptable. They are playing with all our lives. I am very sorry about this, I am sorry about future generations. I think that most of my fellow ministers are angry too"? Was the noble Lord's right honourable friend as isolated at this conference as the Prime Minister has been at a whole series of such conferences?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as I pointed out earlier, this Government do not have a policy of introducing 90 per cent. unemployment on Teesside. We have a policy which states that we shall stop industrial waste dumping by 1993 which is achievable. In terms of initiative, it was this Government who insisted at the conference upon the destruction of PCBs at home rather than elsewhere.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords——

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered the question. Did the British Government sign an agreement in 1987? It was an agreement not for the end of 1993 but for the end of 1989. I want to know whether the British Government signed that agreement. If they did, why have they broken it?

Noble Lords
Do not answer!

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, had been listening he would have heard me say in my previous answer that it is not the British Government's policy to introduce 90 per cent. unemployment on Teesside.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, is my noble friend as concerned as I am to notice on occasions such as this the eagerness with which noble Lords opposite seem to enjoy denigrating any contributions we make to the outcome of any of these conferences?

Noble Lords
Next Question!

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, surely the noble Lord realises that if he refuses to answer a simple question there is bound to be procrastination in the Chamber. Will he kindly answer the question: did we sign the agreement or not?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, we have signed an agreement which commits us not to dump industrial waste from 1993.