Community Charge (Hansard, 12 March 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)
My Lords, charging authorities are not required to set the amounts of the personal community charges until 1st April. Over half of the 366 charging authorities in England have yet to provide the department with this information. The information is therefore inadequate to provide a national average.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am extremely grateful for that non-Answer? Is he also aware that responsible newspapers published graphs this morning showing a charge level of approximately £330 to £350? If one takes the difference between Labour authorities and Conservative authorities based on the national average, it is less than 50p a week. Does that not destroy Mr. Kenneth Baker's idea that the sole cause of the difference is due to high-spending, profligate Labour authorities when the overwhelming cause of the situation is lack of government funding?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's first point concerning responsible newspapers, the news he brings to the House is encouraging, because the original figure was £370. I am no statistician, but it is entirely reasonable to say that we cannot judge these figures until they are all in.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, what does the noble Lord have to say about the Berkshire County Council and the Maidenhead and Windsor Borough Council, both of which are Tory controlled? In the Maidenhead and Windsor Borough Council the community charge is £449. That is far above the average, as the noble Lord will appreciate. Would he like to comment as to whether these Tory councils are profligate spenders?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as I said last week to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, I shall be more than 1302 happy to answer a Question with regard to a specific council if he wishes to put a Question down on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that in constituencies where the actual poll tax is higher than the Government's assumed poll tax, rebates and transitional relief will be worked out on the Government's assumptions and not on the actual figure? That will mean that thousands—perhaps millions—of people will pay more poll tax than the Government are pretending that they will.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it would be entirely impractical to pay transitional relief unless we were able to base it on the figure that we suggested in the first place, which is based on standard spending.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Minister is referring to transitional relief and to the safety net. Will he confirm that the London Borough of Wandsworth, which has been so praised in the Tory press, is obtaining £170 per poll tax payer from the safety net, whereas conspicuously poorer boroughs, such as Hackney, Brent, Camden and Islington, are contributing to the safety net?

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
Never! That cannot be true.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, wishes to table a specific Question on a particular borough, I shall be more than happy to answer. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, is speaking from a sedentary position. The fact is that there are 366 authorities. I should love to be in a position to answer on behalf of each one of those authorities; however, I believe that is an impracticality.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, even if the Minister's department does not have the opportunity to do so, surely the Minister can read the papers. He can find out and brief himself properly.

§ Lord Milverton
My Lords, are my noble friend and Her Majesty's Government aware that there are many people who are deeply worried about how they will manage to pay the community charge—the poll tax? I say that because several people have mentioned it to me. I refer to old and young people. Are the Government aware of the position? I must admit that I rather wish I had had the courage to vote against it when it was first introduced.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, one of the difficulties concerning Lord Dean's Question is this. From the snapshot of the figures available—because that is all we have so far—the levels of the community charge raised, taking, to use his phrase, the reputable press into account, equate to an increase in domestic rates this year of 35 per cent. That is a very worrying fact.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, are we likely to have any further recantations from confessed sinners such as the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw, 1303 who declares that something must be done? Is there any likelihood that he will be recalled to the Cabinet in order to do something about it?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am always very grateful for an intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. It would be fair to say, however, that that is a matter which is above my station.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Lord answer the second part of the question of my noble friend Lord Dean? Is it the case that Conservative councils are fixing poll taxes at over 30 per cent. above the Government's estimate? If that is the case, does the noble Lord expect them to be rate-capped in the same way as is threatened to Labour councils?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as I have already said, it is important that we should wait to see the true statistical evidence rather than the suggested statistical evidence. It is the difference between the position of those who wish to speculate and that of the Government who wish to act on concrete evidence.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, as a result of the Government's experience of the implementation of the Act in Scotland and the reaction of people in England and Wales, would it not be sensible to call a halt and re-examine the entire situation so that the ultimate legislation will be acceptable to the British people as a whole and not merely to stalwarts of the Conservative Party?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the so-called reaction experienced during the past few days has not been entirely representative.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, given that the Minister has at least a point when he says that he would like to wait until all local authorities have set the poll tax rate, will he say now that all local authorities, be they Tory or Labour, whose rate is above that set by the Government are high spenders and irresponsible?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, we must wait to see the result—and the noble Lord, Lord Dormand, gave me the benefit of the doubt—and judge the situation after 1st April.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, the Minister gave a figure of 25 per cent. Is he aware that whereas, some time ago, the Prime Minister said that the poll tax must provide for 25 per cent. of local authority spending, it must now provide for 37 per cent.? Who got the sums wrong?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I gave the figure of 35 per cent., to which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister referred, with regard to the effect on domestic rates this year. That was on the basis that the projected figure—and there is no certainty as yet in the figures—as gleaned from the reputable press, is the eventual outcome.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, will the Minister answer the second part of my question? The Prime Minister said that the poll tax would be expected to cover 25 per cent. of local authority spending but, in fact, it must now cover 35 per cent. Who got the sums wrong?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, we could end up with a complicated and, I suspect, extremely lengthy mathematical discussion. It is a question of whether you make an assumption on the basic level of spending or add to that an increase in expenditure of 16 per cent. and then say that the sum suits you.

Noble Lords
Next Question! Eight minutes!

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, the Minister uses the phrase "community charge" but the questioners referred to "poll tax". What is the difference?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, if 100 per cent. of local authority expenditure was paid for on an individual basis it would be fair to call that a poll tax. However, when the expenditure is one-quarter it is reasonable to call it a community charge.