HL Deb 12 March 1990 vol 516 cc1372-92

7.5 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Skelmersdale) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th February be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is one of a series of routine financial orders for Northern Ireland which come before the House each year.

The draft order has two purposes. The first is to authorise the expenditure of some £71.8 million in the 1989–90 spring supplementary estimates. Your Lordships may wish to refer to the 1989–90 Northern Ireland Spring Supplementary Estimates booklet, which gives full details of the sums sought and which is available in the Printed Paper Office. The £71.8 million is additional to the £4,223 million previously approved by the House and brings the total Estimates provision for Northern Ireland departmental services to some £4,295 million for this financial year, within a public expenditure total of some £5.8 billion.

The second purpose of the order is to authorise the Vote-on-Account of some £1,816 million for 1990–91. As the House will be aware, this amount is required to enable the services of Northern Ireland departments to continue until the 1990–91 Main Estimates for Northern Ireland are brought before the House later this year. The Statement of Sums Required on Account, which gives details of this expenditure, is also available in the Printed Paper Office.

I shall start with the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Agriculture's Vote 1 which provides for Northern Ireland expenditure on United Kingdom-wide support schemes. Some £2.4 million is sought mainly for increased payments under agricultural improvement schemes to meet higher than anticipated uptake and value of claims. In addition, £1 million is required under the Hill Livestock Compensatory Allowance Scheme. These increases are, however, fully offset by lower than expected demand on capital grant schemes resulting in a token increase of £1,000 in the Vote.

In the Department of Agriculture's Vote 2, covering local support measures, some £1.8 million is required to meet increases in professional fees and compensation payments under the disease eradication programme. In addition, £0.6 million is required for laboratory modifications and scientific equipment and £0.2 million is required for the Woodlands Grant Scheme to reflect a welcome increase in participation by the private sector in afforestation. These increases are fully offset by reduced requirements under the Northern Ireland Agricultural Development Programme.

I now turn to the Department of Economic Development, which has Supplementary Estimates for three Votes. In Vote 2 net additional provision of £12.5 million is sought. Of that £10.7 million is in the section of the Vote relating to assistance to the aircraft and shipbuilding industries which inter alia provides for expenditures connected with privatisation. The House will recall that under the agreement with Bombardier for the sale of Shorts, the Government undertook to fund losses incurred by Shorts from 1st April 1989 until the completion of the sale on 4th October 1989. The additional funding now required will discharge the Government's obligations in this area.

Your Lordships will wish to note that since the Estimates were printed and laid it has become apparent that some £5.6 million of the 1989–90 provision previously sought for Shorts will in fact be used to cover expenditure on Harland and Wolff in the same year. This remains consistent with the ambit of the Vote. There will be consequential adjustments to provision for Shorts in 1990–91.

In the same Vote an additional £4.2 million is required for the Local Enterprise Development Unit (LEDU), Northern Ireland's small business agency. This will enable LEDU to continue its important work of stimulating growth in the small business sector in Northern Ireland. These increases are offset by reductions of some £2 million elsewhere in the Vote.

A token Supplementary Estimate is sought for the Department of Economic Development's Vote 3, where various increases in expenditure are offset by savings elsewhere within the Vote. As part of the Government's plans to rationalise the training system in Northern Ireland, a single training organisation, the Training and Employment Agency, will be established in April and £0.6 million is required towards the costs of winding up the existing Northern Ireland Training Authority.

An additional £5.8 million is sought for the Department of Economic Development's Vote 5, mainly for financial assistance to the gas industry. This includes accelerated payments in connection with the rundown and closure costs of Belfast Gas. The Department of the Environment's Vote 1, which covers roads, transport and ports, requires a net additional provision of £3.5 million: £2.9 million of this relates to grants paid by the department to bus companies for capital expenditure on the purchase of new buses.

A token Supplementary Estimate is required for the Department of the Environment's Vote 3. The main increase is in respect of consultants' fees for design work on water and sewerage schemes associated with compliance with EC directives. An additional £1.9 million is sought for that department's Vote 5, mainly for capital expenditure on public sector office accommodation and office furniture. Of this, £1.6 million relates to the accommodation requirements of the operational strategy computerisation programme in the Department of Health and Social Services.

Turning to the Department of Education, a net increase of £9.9 million is sought for Vote 1 and £11.1 million is required for grants to education and library boards. Of this £7 million is for pay awards and price increases and for the youth training programme and £4.1 million is required for capital grants. An extra £1.8 million is for capital expenditure by voluntary schools, including the purchase of sites and properties for integrated schools. Your Lordships will note that some £1 million is for expenditure in support of the Government's proposals for education reforms, bringing the additional resources made available for this purpose to over £5 million in 1989–90. In the Department of Education's Vote 2, an additional £2.6 million is sought on a range of services. The main increase of £1.6 million is for grants to universities and includes the 1989 lecturers' pay settlement and capital expenditure on information technology.

Finally, for health and personal social services, an extra £29 million is being sought in Vote 1. Of this total, some £17.6 million is for the health and social services boards, largely to meet the cost of pay settlements. It will also allow further progress to be made in the transition from institutional to community care for those in long-stay accommodation. A further £4.7 million is required for family practitioner services to meet increased demand and higher costs. These additions bring Vote 1 provision for the current year to £865 million, within a total health and social services budget of over £960 million.

Your Lordships will note that included in the additional sums sought, £3.5 million is for initial work on the implementation of health service reforms in Northern Ireland. These are designed to give patients better health care, a greater choice of services and better value for money.

I appreciate that I have listed a range of figures dealing with a large number of services conducted by Northern Ireland departments for the benefit of the whole population of the Province. I hope that noble Lords will have found helpful this summary of the main components of the Spring Supplementary Estimates. I therefore commend the order to your Lordships. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th February be approved.—(Lord Skelmersdale.)

7.15 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I thank the Minister for having given the House a fair summary of the contents of the order. I propose to confine my comments to a few items which are related to the Votes of the Department of Economic Development, the Department of Health and Social Services and the Department of Finance and Personnel, respectively. It is appropriate that I start with the economy. The strengthening of the Northern Ireland economy continues to be a major priority of the Government. There is nothing between the political parties on the importance of that objective. We know that unemployment remains exceptionally high. It is at an average of about 16 per cent. of the working population compared with an average of about 6 per cent. on the mainland. We know that the growth of output is still disappointing.

There is a tendency in some quarters to think of a regional support budget as some kind of philanthropy, but those of us who come from the present disadvantaged regions know that regional grants and incentives are essential if those regions are to rebuild their shattered and depressed economies. Nevertheless, I accept that we have constantly to look closely at the operation of regional aid policies to see whether they are capable of being improved. If experience shows that there are difficulties which are not being resolved, they should not be skated over out of loyalty to a concept.

Against that background the Northern Ireland Economic Council published on 22nd February last a valuable but worrying report on the Industrial Development Board, selective financial assistance and economic development policy. We are greatly indebted to the Norther Ireland Economic Council for that contribution. If noble Lords look at the summary of the primary recommendations on pages 84 to 86 of the report, I believe that they will find reasons for concern.

I shall give the House three examples: first, of the 23,000 jobs which were promised by the IDP and LEDU between 1982–83 and 1987–88 only 9,263 were actually created. Even if we take out the failure of the Lear Fan project the gap between what was promised and what has been achieved at the end of five years is still disturbing. I assumed that the economic council's report had been delivered to the department at the end of last year. Therefore, it is a little surprising that in the speech of the Minister for the economy on 9th January last there is a total absence of awareness of the gap between promise and reality. The Minister promised that up to 12,000 new jobs would be promoted in 1990 by the recipients of grants from the IDP and LEDU. So the job gap is worry number one.

Secondly, two-thirds of the total number of new jobs created during the five-year period in question were in the electrical engineering, clothing and textile industries, which are the more traditional industries of Northern Ireland. The grants paid out by the two organisations were usually of a capital nature. So why is it that the industrial base has not been broadened and diversified to a much greater degree? Has there been an over-reliance on grants of a capital nature? Has too little attention been paid to the training of a more skilled labour force? Has too little attention been paid to research and development? I note that research and development grants account for less than 7 per cent. of the total grant expenditure in 1988–89. The failure to achieve a more diversified industrial base and greater investment in research and development is worry number two.

Thirdly, the Northern Ireland Economic Council calls for an overall development framework, setting out objectives with respect to job creation and performance indicators for specific sectors of the economy to be achieved over a given number of years. Without such a framework, without goals, targets and a timetable by which to assess progress, how can one measure what is being achieved? Without such a framework, will one bring about the scale of change which is required? The absence of such a framework is worry number three.

I wonder whether the Minister is in a position to tell the House how the Government are likely to respond to this report. Do they intend to continue to rely on job promotion rather than on jobs which are created? Will a positive effort be made to diversify the industrial base, to invest in research and training and to take a more rounded view of the economy? I wonder whether I can draw the Minister out on these serious matters.

I should now like to turn to the noble Lord's department, the Department of Health and Social Services. This department is, as one would expect, the highest spending of all the Northern Ireland departments. Here again I want to base my comments on another report, the 36th report of the Public Accounts Committee, relating inter alia to the Department of Health and Social Services and the health boards and also to the department's response to that report. The report identifies a need for improved management information. We want a systematic collection and analysis of statistics in order to monitor day-to-day operations, and we want it for planning the service.

I note that the department comes in for some criticism for having failed to issue guidelines on an occasion on which they should have been issued. Again it is the subject of some criticism for having failed to develop performance indicators. I have no wish to undermine the position of the health boards; on the other hand, I do not want to underestimate what the proper role of the Department of Health and Social Services should be in relation to the health boards. Of course the relationship is one of principal and agent, which involves a parcel of rights and duties. That relationship is very easy to state in abstract terms. But one is prompted to ask whether the department should be making more vigorous use of its powers as a principal to set standards and to monitor. Is the Minister giving consideration to strengthening the management structure at departmental level? I wonder whether I can draw the noble Lord on this issue.

Perhaps I may now turn to the speech delivered by the noble Lord on 2nd February in which he announced the Government's proposals for the reform of the health service in Northern Ireland—a speech, incidentally, which contained no reference to the need to assess the quality of therapy. The noble Lord claimed that the proposals would match resources with services and would ensure success for hospitals and units. We have had an echo of that speech from the noble Lord his evening. I say with deep respect that the assertion contained in the speech of 2nd February is at best an expression of hope.

Arising out of the speech I should like to touch very briefly on three issues. First, the Minister said that the funds would be distributed to the health boards in accordance with the size and health characteristics of the population. Is it envisaged that the distribution will be any different from the present distribution? If it will differ, will the noble Lord kindly give particulars?

Secondly, the noble Lord said that the health boards would develop contractual relations with their hospitals, with their units, with GP fund holders and with the private sector. To work out a reliable and viable contract for pricing medical services is an exceedingly complex process requiring accountancy skills of a high order. To put a price on a treatment involves an apportionment of salaries of doctors, nurses, paramedical staff and ancillary staff, and of theatre costs, pathology costs, lighting, heating and cleaning costs, hotel expenses, ambulance costs and no doubt other items of expenditure. On these Benches we have a deep anxiety that the Government are overlooking the fact that the NHS does not have a sufficient supply of top accountants to undertake the complicated pricing which will be required at hospital and unit level. My anxiety is in no way allayed by the reply given to question 4364 recorded in the report of the Public Accounts Committee to which I referred. In the result we fear that we shall have a cut-price service and a second-rate treatment.

Has the department considered whether the NHS in Northern Ireland has an adequacy of accounting staff fitted for the tasks? Even if the Government have convinced themselves that the new model will work miracles in hospitals, we would urge the department not to seek to implement the model in Northern Ireland until it has been tested in one or two health districts and the results show that there is no reduction in the quality of service. The Government should not bequeath to the people of Northern Ireland a dreadful legacy founded on rhetoric when at long last they are discharged from office.

My last point concerns an item of expenditure by the Department of Finance and Personnel. It is the sum of £536,000 granted towards community relations. It is not clear to me why this item appears where it does in the vote to the Department of Finance and Personnel. Neither is it clear to me how it is related to the total expenditure above £3 million or £4 million which I understand from a recent speech of the education Minister is being spent on community relations. I should like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation of the efforts of the education Minister in this field and in regard to the education reform order. The credit for achieving the recent initiatives in community relations must go in particular to the education Minister. I am glad to acknowledge his contribution.

I welcome the Minister's action in setting up the community relations unit which is administered by civil servants in Stormont and for setting up the independent Community Relations Council to encourage co-operation between the communities. The Minister was right to describe the setting up of the council as a significant milestone on the long, hard road to bringing the two communities together. I should also say that I welcome the promise of funding for the new charity, Ultach, which was set up last September to co-ordinate the work of the various bodies interested in promoting the Irish language. Of course, in that area we also need co-operation between the two governments.

The Broadcasting Bill is at present before the other place and I understand that a broadcasting Bill is being considered, or soon will be considered, in the Dail. I believe that there is considerable scope for co-operation between broadcasters north and south of the Border in order to provide a totality of television and radio services for the island. It seems to me that that is an item which could possibly be placed on the agenda of the inter-governmental conference.

I have taken up more than my allotted time with my remarks and I await with great interest the response of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, to the few questions which I addressed to him and to those which other Members of your Lordships' House will put forward.

7.30 p.m.

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, I too should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for introducing the appropriation order with his account of various crucial items of government expenditure, presenting us with, as he rightly described it, a whole range of figures. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, for his characteristically meticulous analysis of the issues about which he wished to hear more from the Minister. Like him, I should like to hear in the noble Lord's reply a slightly more broad-ranging account of his expectations of the performance of the economy in the coming year. It is upon this that so much will depend. It will be interesting to know whether he expects the gap between promise and achievement, to which the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, drew attention, to be closed or whether it is to remain in much the same rather disappointing order that it stands today.

In that connection I should also like to know what progress the noble Lord feels has been made in the approach towards equality of employment, irrespective of religion, which was the subject of earlier debates in your Lordships' House in regard to Northern Ireland. In my view there is in Northern Ireland an extremely wide-ranging and what should be an extremely effective anti-discrimination law. However, how is it working and what is the appreciation of the results? Is it just holding matters as they were, or is there any evidence that it is making progress? It is that and the community relations picture to which the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred which is really crucial to the future of the Province.

Within that area there is one particular aspect about which I should like to hear from the Minister. I refer to integrated education. It seems to me that integrated education is one of the most important constructive steps that has been taken in the Province. It is a crucial issue which can have enormous consequences and which has been greeted, according to my information, with considerable optimism by a variety of educational establishments.

As I understand it, there are today 10 integrated maintained-status schools which receive 85 per cent. capital funding, three unsupported integrated schools and two which are due to open in September. The absolutely crucial issue in this respect is whether government funding will be sufficient to cover the commitments made in the education reform order. According to my information, a number of state schools wish to find out more about becoming integrated schools. That is surely an interest which we would want to encourage and support. There are also a number of smaller projects in the pipeline.

However, a number of funding bodies—not governmental funding bodies—in the United Kingdom and in Northern Ireland are withdrawing funds, or are thinking of doing so, because they think that the Government are committed to supporting that movement. Can the Minister tell us whether this is the case and whether the Government are prepared to produce the resources which are essential if the integrated education movement is to go forward? It would be extremely unfortunate if the unintegrated schools thought that their funds were being diminished because of support for integrated schools. Therefore what we need to hear from the Government is not merely that they are committed, as they indicated, to supporting integrated education, but also that this will not in any sense be at the expense of other educational establishments.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred in his remarks to the Broadcasting Bill. It is indeed extremely relevant. When I was at the BBC in the late 1970s and took a particular interest in the broadcasts in Northern Ireland, I found that at that time almost the only educational material which was not written from a particular position and which was available in schools was that which was provided by the BBC's education service. Therefore it seems to me to be extremely important that the educational activity of the broadcasting authorities should remain a central part of their duties in the new Broadcasting Bill. It is most certainly a matter which I and my noble friends will raise. Therefore my first question to the Minister is whether he can tell us what progress is being made on that front and how it is being handled financially.

The second point, about which I have spoken to the Minister, sounds a little wide of what we are discussing but nonetheless it is crucial to the prosperity of industry in Northern Ireland. It arises from the second report of the Defence Committee in another place about a payment to Harland and Wolff. It is a most extraordinary and complicated story with which I do not propose to bewilder your Lordships at this hour of night. I shall simply point out that paragraph 32 of the report says: While the outcome of this bizarre fiscal gavotte has been that the defence budget is shielded from the effects of the settlement, we cannot as a Committee of the House of Commons pronounce ourselves as content that the Treasury have sought and obtained parliamentary authority for MoD to make a payment to Harland and Wolff plc, who pass on the funds to the Northern Ireland Department of Economic Development, who surrender it to the Exchequer, whence a matching amount is found in the next financial year as 'a claim on the Reserve' ". It is an absolutely astonishing story. In conclusion, the committee said: The evidence before us suggests that a subterfuge has been attempted upon Parliament". It is quite a serious state of affairs and I should very much like to hear the Minister's comments on the matter.

Finally, there is a relatively small question upon which I simply require information. One way in which you can measure the prosperity, the progress or otherwise of the economy in Ulster is by the rate of emigration. Does the Minister have any figures in this respect and, if so, how do they compare with the rate of emigration from the Republic? Moreover, what are the forecasts for the coming year? I should be grateful if the Minister could tell us something about that. I thank him for his introduction and look forward to hearing his reply.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, once again I reiterate how grateful we are to my noble friend for presenting in such a succinct way the appropriation order before us this evening. I have a note saying that this is quite like old times. However it is not. My noble friend is far briefer than I ever managed to be in the whole of my career. On the other hand, he will know that this is a double-edged sword, because we look at the clock. We are not necessarily up against a time limit, but with that in mind I shall restrict my remarks.

I have not had the opportunity which we very often used to have in debates of this nature of entering into collusion with the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. We used to agree that I would not cover points on the agricultural front which he might wish to raise. However, with that risk in mind, I wish to ask the Minister whether he can give me some help, if not tonight then perhaps he will let me know at his leisure or that of the Department of Agriculture and in an appropriate form.

The Minister and your Lordships will know the magic letters of the alphabet, "BSE". I am told that they stand for something in the nature of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, mad cow disease. It has an unfortunate effect upon the bovine population of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and I understand that there are one or two cases in the Republic. It also has an unfortunate effect upon the beef trade within the European Community. Would my noble friend be able to inquire how many cases of the malady have been notified in Northern Ireland in approximately the last 12 months? If he could obtain that information I should be grateful. Further, does he or the Department of Agriculture have any good news as to how the disease is being contained and whether any potential spread is being controlled?

When we consider any animal disease or the health of animals in the agricultural industry in the Province, I am sure that my noble friend and your Lordships will accept, as would the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, that there is a need for every individual farmer to notify his local district veterinary office. That office can then take the necessary steps to attempt to find the reason for the diseases at the best diagnostic laboratory certainly in the British Isles and I suspect on the Continent of Europe. I refer to the Veterinary—Research Laboratory at Stormont—part of the Department of Agriculture—which never ceased to amaze me during my career in that department.

If we wish to notify every farmer in Northern Ireland we must never forget the far-flung areas such as County Fermanagh and County Tyrone. I am sure that the remarks made by the Minister and by your Lordships this evening will be noted in the impartial reporter, the Fermanagh Herald, that excellent newspaper in the West, the Tyrone Constitution, and I seem to remember the Tyrone Democrat in another connection in East Tyrone dealing with veterinary problems.

I was entirely stunned by the figures announced by my noble friend when he opened his dissertation concerning the low take-up by the agricultural industry of capital grants. I wonder what has happened since my time in the Department of Agriculture, which was always marked by the slogan in every newspaper, "Act fast while grants last". Can my noble friend give me an indication—perhaps not tonight—of the reason for the lack of take-up of capital grants? I do not doubt that there will be a suitable reason.

My second major question deals with the computerisation of bovines within Northern Ireland. I am sure that my noble friend and your Lordships will be aware that in regard to veterinary matters in Northern Ireland each district was to have a computerised record of every bovine animal in the area. This was, first, to assist in tracing animal diseases such as tuberculosis and brucellosis. It would make it far easier to track down any reactors or breakdowns in the tests. Further, the computerised records will go a great way towards reducing the enormous paperwork necessary in Northern Ireland.

One example pointed out to me was that in Dungannon movement permits were required for each beast. If it left the home farm and went to market the farmer might decide that the price offered was not satisfactory, he might move on to another market, then a third and fourth market and then gradually go home. For each stage of the journey a separate movement order was required. I hope that the computerisation of bovines will go some way towards alleviating the enormous amount of paperwork. I was aware that the district veterinary office at Newtownards was up and running in regard to this aspect.

My third question concerns fisheries. I understand that the poor weather has had quite an effect upon the fishing fleet in Scotland. I believe that it has also affected the fishing industry at Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel. Can my noble friend give me brief information or instructions on the reason for that this evening? It might be the poor weather, but there could also be problems of reduced quotas for the pelagic or submersal catches taken by the industry.

I thank my noble friend the Minister and look forward to any answers that he can give tonight. However, I understand that it may be necessary for him to get in touch with me in writing.

7.45 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I too wish to thank the Minister for the way in which he has introduced the Appropriation Order. I thank him also for his kind letter inviting prior notice of any points which noble Lords might wish to raise in the debate. Regrettably, however, the letter did not reach me until Saturday morning and there was no opportunity for me to reply. As I pointed out to the predecessor of the noble Lord on the Front Bench, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, degrading though it may seem, I do not live in the Palace of Westminster. The delay was incurred through the letter having to be forwarded to my home address, for which I apologise.

The additional 1 per cent. of milk quota is extremely welcome. However, I wish that there were some way in which it was possible for farmers to be notified further in advance so that they could carry out business planning. Inconvenient though it may be, if a product in a factory is in surplus the production line can be stopped for two or three weeks. If there is an unexpected demand, double shifts can be worked. Unfortunately that is not possible with a dairy herd. We can regulate it to a certain extent by the amount of concentrates we feed but genetically if a herd is geared to high production it will run into health and fertility problems if the herd is run too short of concentrate rations during the winter.

If it were possible for the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in Great Britain as well as the people in charge of the common agricultural policy in Europe to give us more advance warning of what is likely to happen, it would save a great deal of trouble and be extremely welcome.

On the subject of beef, it is true that beef farmers throughout the entire United Kingdom have had a fairly rough time over the past six months. However the Minister will probably be aware that we in Northern Ireland are even more disadvantaged because of the proximity of the Republic of Ireland. It is worth while for the meat plant owners to buy cattle in the South, bring them up across the border to the North, collect the monetary compensation and then have the beef processed in the North. That sara tends to cause a glut in what is already a depressed market. Therefore beef farmers in Northern Ireland have suffered badly this winter. I am told that an average of £70 per head has been lost by most of the finishers.

I could say with hindsight that had we only joined the EMS when the pound was strong by comparison with the Deutschmark and inflation was low this problem would not have arisen, but the way things are at the moment devaluation of the green pound is a matter of urgency. However, that will not recompense those who have already suffered. Therefore, I join with the Ulster Farmers Union in recommending that there should be a headage premium, retrospective to perhaps 1st December 1989.

Those involved in agriculture in Northern Ireland have not been unique in suffering severe storm damage in recent months. I am not sure what plans, if any, are in train for compensation for those who have suffered in Wales, but I know that in the Ballykelly area of County Londonderry hundreds of acres have been under three feet of salt water. Many of those hundreds of acres had been planted with winter cereals which have been lost completely. That was due to the fact that the sea defences for which Her Majesty's Government are responsible were inadequate to cope with an exceptionally high tide coupled with an adverse wind. I sincerely hope that some compensation will be payable to the farmers in question.

I now turn to the Department of the Environment. Pollution continues to be a current topic. However, when all is said and done, I am afraid it transpires that much more has been said than has been done. Unfortunately the River Lagan, which flows through Belfast, is still filthy. Sewage and domestic and industrial waste are still being pumped into it despite all that has been said and all that has been promised. Lough Neagh is increasingly used as a source of public water supply but the water in that lough is not fit to drink. It may be treated with chlorine and it may be subjected to other processes, but with its enrichment of phosphates, nitrates and other elements it is not a healthy source of drinking water. The problem is that the Department of the Environment is responsible for much of the pollution but it is also responsible for monitoring pollution. Therefore it is hardly surprising that the department is reluctant to prosecute itself. I therefore respectfully suggest that the answer is to have a completely independent authority to monitor pollution of watercourses, the sea, lakes and the environment generally.

I now turn to the Department of Education. Many of the changes that have been announced are welcome. We welcome particularly the encouragement to integrated education that was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter. Integrated education is getting off the ground now. The pace of progress is accelerating. That is greatly to be welcomed. However, looking at the general field of education, the changes that have been announced are putting a considerable strain on schools. I am told that many more resources are required for the retraining of teachers and for the re-equipping of schools. I am told that there is a shortage of books and that morale among teachers is low. Her Majesty's Government may not have anticipated the resources that would be required to bring about the changes which, on the whole, are welcome.

I now turn to the Department of Health and of Social Security. I wish to offer special thanks to the Minister for his personal interest in the Northern Ireland hospice movement and for the way in which he has responded to the representations made to him about that. That is greatly appreciated. We know that the Minister has taken a particular interest in the hospice movement. However, on a more controversial note, I must ask what the outcome will be of the alleged scandal at the Kincora boys' school. That scandal is only "alleged" because no one knows the truth about it. That is the problem. I respectfully suggest that unless there is a full public inquiry into the matter, a broad spectrum of public opinion will perceive that there continues to be a cover-up on the issue. What about the documents produced by Mr. Colin Wallace? Are they authentic? We do not know the answer to that question, but we need to know. I am afraid that is something that cannot be swept under the carpet.

Finally, I have a point to make as regards the department responsible for finance and personnel. This point may not be relevant, but I hope your Lordships will forgive me for mentioning it. I wish to say how grateful I am to Her Majesty's Government for the facilities they provided for the recent first sitting of the British/Irish inter-parliamentary body. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, attended that occasion, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. I hope they agree with me that the mood was good. Contentious issues were not dodged, but all present made a conscious effort to avoid being contentious.

I am hopeful as regards the future of this body. The Northern Ireland Office may have had little to do with the event, but I still wish to pay tribute to Her Majesty's Government for having made it possible. I regret that the Unionists did not see fit to participate despite the fact that in a document that they submitted to the Secretary of State two years ago they advocated such a body. I sincerely hope they will change their minds but, for all that, I am glad that the event took place and I look forward to further progress in the future.

8 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, when discussing an appropriation order of such magnitude, I sometimes feel totally inadequate as regards giving it the attention it deserves. This House to some extent must be in the same position. I received a letter about the order from the Minister, as I an certain the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, did. We are discussing an appropriation estimate of £1,816 million. That is a figure of nearly £2 billion. The expenditure has to be discussed within one hour or one and a half hours. I do not think it is right that such an amount of money should be considered in those circumstances.

In another place there is a different situation. There are 16 Members of Parliament who live in Northern Ireland and who represent Northern Ireland constituencies. As I know from experience, if one lives in a particular constituency in Northern Ireland and one has a Northern Ireland electorate, one is much more aware of the everyday happenings there and of the events that can be linked to one or other of the parts of this order.

Tonight we have heard two noble Lords dwell specifically on agriculture, but there are many more issues that could have been discussed had we been more aware of the subject. I understand that the elected Members of Parliament at the other end of the building will probably be discussing the order at this time of the day. I repeat that totally inadequate provision has been made for consideration of such colossal expenditure—almost £2 billion—for an area as small as, and with the population of, Northern Ireland. If we were discussing Wales or Scotland the elected Members in another part of the building would co-operate with many Members of your Lordships' House to allow a more reasoned and understanding approach to the issues involved in expenditure of this size.

I now turn to representations that have been made to me as someone who formerly represented a constitutency in Northern Ireland and who is still known in the Province. I have advised the Minister's office of the issues. Peter Stott Martin House in County Antrim cares for a number of patients who suffer from multiple sclerosis. Evidently the inmates of the home are well looked after by well-trained staff. They are happy in the home, which has aids—enabling them, for instance, to climb stairs—which are necessary for people suffering from such a serious disablement. It appears that, without any consultation of the people who support it, the home is to be closed and the patients relocated to the Dalriada Hospital in Ballycastle. I understand that concern is being voiced by the staff and also by the patients who have found that the home has served them well in the past in their serious disablement.

The Minister will be aware that a deputation from Northern Ireland attended this House early last month. They were protesting against the relocation of services from the Moyle Hospital in Lame to another part of County Antrim. It may be said by the department that the services are being relocated because that will be cheaper in the long run. However, the needs of the people who use the facilities have to be taken into account. I understand that the medical staff and people in the surrounding area are protesting vigorously at the department's intention to relocate the acute services at the Moyle Hospital without giving any consideration to the representations that have been made.

Those are two of the issues that I wanted to bring to the Minister's attention tonight. I have also had a number of letters on a further subject, possibly because I was myself a victim at one time. It appears that there is a very long waiting list in Northern Ireland for coronary bypass operations. I was very lucky: I felt the pain one day and I had the operation the next day. However, people have been designated to have the operation and have been put on to the end of a very long waiting list. I can understand how that can affect their whole outlook on life.

There is a similar situation regarding cataract operations. I have spoken to the eye specialists at the Royal Victoria Hospital, which is renowed throughout the United Kingdom for its specialist eye services. There is a tremendous waiting list of people needing cataract operations. I do not suppose that the Minister will have tonight the figures concerning the number of people on the waiting lists, but I ask him to write to me. More importantly, I ask whether he can take steps to see whether the waiting list could be reduced and the operations expedited. That would be in the interests of all those people who are living in fear either of coronary problems or of going blind. I am sure that he will also look into the other cases that I mentioned.

I feel that those few words are inadequate because I am certain that in the context of this colossal figure of nearly £2 billion there are many more questions which could be asked and should be asked in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, is absolutely right. He will see from my letter—which he had in his hand—that I regard any question as fair game. I appreciate that this very wide-ranging debate could have been even more wide-ranging. Nevertheless I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken for their concern in putting those points which they regard as important.

Last week I was privileged to receive a visit from my noble friend Lord Long. At one point during his discussion with local people the point was made that Northern Ireland could not progress in any sense of the word without increased economic activity. The Government were praised for what they had done in recent months. I have to confess that, rather like my son's school report, it was tempered by the words "could do better". Therefore, I was particularly interested that the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, voiced their concerns in that area. I suspect that for many of your Lordships such concerns were subliminal.

As in the rest of the United Kingdom, the improvement owes much to the Government's determination to create a business environment in which enterprise can flourish. The success of Northern Ireland's manufacturing industry in achieving a 9 per cent. increase in output in the year to December 1989, which we might compare with a 3 per cent. increase for the United Kingdom as a whole, shows that industry can rise to the challenge of increasingly competitive markets. However, we cannot afford to be complacent, with unemployment remaining stubbornly high. I agree with the noble Lord who said that. The fact that the number of unemployed has fallen by 25,000 over 1 he last three years and by 9,000 last year alone shows the resolve with which the problem is being tackled. As the House will know, further figures will be announced later this week. I confidently expect that they will show a continuation of that trend.

Nonetheless it is vital to the long-term future of the Northern Ireland economy that not only should jobs be created but they should be jobs with a future in industries which can compete in world markets. To that end the Government are concentrating their efforts on strengthening the Northern Ireland economy through measures which will encourage enterprise and thus promote the long-term regeneration of industry to the point where government assistance ceases to be necessary. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that that looks like being a long way off.

In that context the successful return to the private sector of Harland and Wolff and Shorts is particularly encouraging and has confirmed the Government's resolve to carry through an equally successful privatisation of Northern Ireland Electricity.

On the investment front, the recent announcement that Fruit of the Loom, a major USA company, is to establish a factory in Londonderry with the potential for 500 jobs is good news, more so when it follows hard on the heels of another major investment for Londonderry—the £65 million Foyle Street development project with a potential of some 1,100 jobs. There have been other notable major international investments attracted to Northern Ireland also in the recent past—Montupe from France, Di-wheel Electronics from South Korea, Bali from Hong Kong and Harris Laboratories from the USA. They demonstrate the attractiveness of Northern Ireland and the growing confidence of the international business community that the Province is a place for profitable investment opportunities.

Looking further ahead, the 1990s will be a period of rapid change. The European market will be opened up by the removal of legal barriers in 1992 and of physical barriers a year later, with the opening of the Channel Tunnel. That will be a challenge to Northern Ireland industry as Continental European firms will gain easier access to the United Kingdom market, but it will also be an opportunity to sell Northern Ireland products to over 320 million people in the world's largest consumer market. The Government will do all they can to create a climate in which the spirit of enterprise can thrive. It is for the Northern Ireland business community to meet the challenge and to seize the opportunity.

I am sure that the House will join with me in wishing them every success in that venture.

The noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, suggested that the health of the economy could be measured by the Northern Ireland emigration figures. I can advise him that figures have varied considerably over the years reflecting economic circumstances. I would not go quite as far as his words might suggest. In the early 1970s, migration was running at some 24,000 a year. It fell to some 5,300 a year in 1978 and peaked again in the early 1980s. The latest figure is 8,700 in 1987–88.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, who gave me advance warning that he would comment on the Northern Ireland Economic Council report on industrial development. As the report acknowledges, the Industrial Development Board operates against the most difficult background in Northern Ireland. I dare say that few other such agencies in the British Isles envy its task and it is important to keep that perspective in mind when looking at the findings of that particularly useful report.

The development board had itself recognised the need some time ago to develop wider and better indicators of performance than job promotions or promises alone. For that reason it decided to invite the council to look at the matter in more detail and co-operated fully in providing it with information. The outcome has been valuable and, at a time when the DED and IDB are focusing on future strategies, I am sure that we shall find that they will reflect much of the council's thinking. However, it is unfortunate that the media have tended to concentrate on the figure of 41 per cent. job creations from those promised. That is a misleading figure, including as it does the closure of Lear Fan which had a major disturbing effect on the final figure, yet the offer to the company was signed only two weeks after the IDB came into existence. Otherwise, the figure would have been 48 per cent. In addition, a recent update of the NIEC figures show that, for the year 1987–88, 67 per cent. of the jobs promised were in place by September 1989. In any circumstances, that is a most creditable performance, but particularly so in Northern Ireland.

I agree that it is also important that grant payments are kept in line with job creations. The figures contained in the report show that the Industrial Development Board had obtained good value for money. Excluding the distortions that I mentioned earlier caused by Lear Fan, the industrial development board paid only 43 per cent. of assistance offered to create 48 per cent. of the jobs originally promised. The tight conditions applied in all cases ensured that the IDB paid only for what was achieved on the ground by the companies concerned. The IDB will continue to liaise closely with the council on how these findings can be used as a foundation for the future.

The noble Lord touched on the need for training. It goes without saying that the Government attach great importance to assisting employees to gain the relevant skills that they need in a modern economy. As I said in my opening speech, a Training and Employment Agency will be established at the beginning of April. The principal task of that agency will be to implement those training and employment functions which are currently the responsibility of the Department of Economic Development. The agency will have approximately 1,700 staff and resources of £165 million, which the noble Lord will accept is hardly chicken-feed. That is clear evidence of the Government's commitment to help to assure a well-trained, skilled work force in the Province.

The Industrial Development Board will publish a new strategy within the next few months to cover the early years of the 1990s. Obviously, that is fundamental and takes into account various views expressed and reports published by bodies with an interest in the economic and industrial health of Northern Ireland. One clear message coming out of the review is that there is a need to place even more emphasis on increasing the competitiveness of Northern Ireland industry and to develop methods of achieving that, particularly against the background of the completion of the single European market. The Government have always encouraged research and development work by companies in Northern Ireland and the Industrial Development Board's future strategy will continue that emphasis.

I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, that the Government are wholly committed to promoting equality of opportunity and to eliminating discrimination on the grounds of religious belief, political opinion, sex and against married people in general. As a major component in that commitment, the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1989, which came into force on 1st January, aims at ensuring that both communities enjoy fair participation in employment. It is a little unfair to cross-question me this soon on the operation of that Act, but I shall bear the noble Lord's comments in mind and we may perhaps return to the subject at a more appropriate time.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred to the 36th report of the Public Accounts Committee in another place, particularly regarding the need for improved information and performance indicators. The Department of Health and Social Services has accepted the PAC's conclusions lock, stock and barrel. The department is directing considerable resources towards information technology projects designed to bring about significant improvements in management and financial information and to enable the dissemination of information regarding good practice.

The noble Lord also asked about the size and health characteristics of the population of Northern Ireland and about possible changes in the distribution of resources. In essence, the new regime of funding will mean that boards are funded based on the needs of their own populations rather than on what I would describe as the ad hoc accretion of services provided by them.

The noble Lord referred to the new arrangements for contracting and the availability of skilled staff. The health service in Northern Ireland has an extra year in which to develop contracting. It will be introduced in April 1992. There is therefore time to acquire and develop the necessary skills. Health boards and their staff already have a groundwork of experience in contracting, but I accept that training for staff will be an important component of the near future. Northern Ireland is learning from demonstration projects in the Great Britain health authorities. Furthermore, boards will develop a small number of shadow contracts in 1991–1992.

Improving community relations is one of the Government's highest priorities. That is reflected in the range of programmes developed over the last two years. Towards the end of 1987 the Government decided that community relations should be given a higher profile and a new central community relations unit was established to ensure that at the centre of the decision-making process in government community relations issues received full consideration. The increase in resources has been from £0.7 million to around £4 million in 1990–91, which has enabled a major expansion of cross-community contact programmes—the creation of a district council programme to support community relations in their areas, the establishment of a Northern Ireland community relations council (about which we know) and the development of a major cultural traditions programme including support for the Irish language. I shall pass on to my honourable friend the Minister with special responsibility for education the comments that have been made.

There are two small matters to which brief reference was made. Nonetheless I believe that they are important. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, that the report of the Defence Select Committee of another place deals with defence estimates and their handling by the Ministry of Defence. Therefore, while it would not be appropriate for me to comment at this moment, there is no connection between this matter and expenditure on the Northern Ireland Vote. However, the Ministry of Defence has taken note of the report which, as the noble Lord said, has given it something upon which to cogitate. I am advised that it will not be cogitating very much longer.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, mentioned, I suppose inevitably, the Kincora Boys' Home. I remind him that there have already been two very thorough investigations by Sir George Terry and His Honour Judge Hughes respectively. The Government have repeatedly stated that if Mr. Wallace has evidence to back up his allegations, he should make that evidence available. That would be the time to consider whether a further inquiry is either sensible or desirable. At the moment quite clearly it is not.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I hope the Minister will forgive me for interrupting but is it not true to say that a right honourable Member in another place has a letter from Mr. Colin Wallace? Has that letter been authenticated either through fingerprints or other forensic means?

Lord Skelmersdale

It has not to my knowledge, but I repeat the point that this matter has been explored twice very thoroughly. Therefore, there would need to be real evidence. I cannot say at the moment whether that letter provides such evidence.

Not surprisingly, both the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, and my noble friend Lord Lyell referred extensively to agriculture. So far as concerns bovine spongiform encephalopathy, I can advise the House that there have been 40 confirmed cases of BSE, as it is known, in Northern Ireland to date, compared with over 10,000 in Great Britain. At present six animals are under restriction in Northern Ireland as suspect BSE cases. The Republic of Ireland has confirmed 18 cases of BSE.

We have implemented legislation to make BSE a notifiable disease. Suspect animals are slaughtered and all carcasses are destroyed. The feeding of ruminant protein—the most likely source of BSE—to ruminants is prohibited. My own department has paralleled the recently announced Great Britain legal ban on the use of specified bovine offals for human consumption. The Department of Agriculture has also raised the rate of compensation for affected animals from 50 per cent. to 100 per cent. of market value in line with the increased GB levels announced by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture on 13th February.

We acknowledge the adverse effects on Northern Ireland trade of West German restrictions on exports of United Kingdom beef since November 1989. The EC Standing Veterinary Committee, on the advice of the Scientific Veterinary Committee, accepted that there was no public health risk in meat with specified offals removed derived from cattle in countries in which BSE occurs. Subsequent to that decision, the Germans have reduced their certification demands which now require that bone-in meat does not originate from animals affected by BSE or their progeny. The United Kingdom is considering its response to the German conditions for bone-in beef.

Perhaps I may write to my noble friend Lord Lyell about the computerisation of divisional veterinary offices. Briefly, I have been in contact with share fishermen through the good offices of their Member of Parliament but I have to say that, despite recent very heavy and adverse weather conditions, it is not appropriate to compensate them from the agricultural Vote.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, the Government believe that integrated education has a great part to play in overcoming community divisions in Northern Ireland but that will happen only where parents wish it. The Government also continue to recognise and respect the wishes of parents who want to retain the present position with regard to school provision. We had a very long and somewhat intractable debate on that subject the other day. I shall look at the noble Lord's comments and elsewhere in the debate to see whether there is anything of use I can add to assist him. The same will apply to the comments on education made by the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath.

I should like to refer briefly to green pound devaluation. The noble Lord may not know that a green pound devaluation is being considered as part of the 1990–91 EC price fixing proposals. The Commission has proposed a devaluation of one-third of the real monetary gap that exists at the time that the price fixing is agreed. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will be negotiating for the best possible deal in the price fixing round. Any devaluation agreed would have the effect of raising support prices for the producer.

The noble Lord will also have seen the reports of my honourable friend the Minister with special responsibility for agriculture as a result of the flooding at Ballykelly. Once the breach on the Banfoot river has been repaired and the water removed, the department's county agriculture staff will give free advice on the restoration of land. I am advised that it is too early to cost remedial works expenditure on the necessary repairs to the flood banks for the river. The cost in respect of valuable embankment areas is estimated to be in the region of £140,000 and expenditure will be carried out by the Department of Agriculture. However, the Government do not normally compensate for insurable losses. The Department of Agriculture is not liable for damage resulting from the accidental failure of an embankment or flood bank. The question of negligence does not therefore arise.

I appreciate that this has been a very rapid gallop over many of the points adduced by your Lordships on this appropriation debate. The House has had to look at several very different areas of expenditure on this order, which was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, but I am afraid that that is the nature of the Supplementary Estimates. Many of your Lordships probably believe that in this House we are privileged in that this is the only government expenditure that we can examine at all. I am sure that those noble Lords with an interest in Northern Ireland affairs appreciate these opportunities to discuss significant changes in public expenditure in the region. I trust that the House will be content to approve the order.

On Question, Motion agreed to.