Young Offenders: Custodial Sentences (Hansard, 27 June 1990)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, the figures for the end of June 1989 showed that the number of 17 to 20 year-olds who were given custodial sentences for indictable offences had dropped from 21,000 a year earlier to 16,000. The figures for the end of September showed a drop from 21,000 a year earlier to 14,000.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on that very satisfactory Answer. Can my noble friend inform the House of the initiative that the Government have taken towards these young offenders, thereby reducing the number of those taken into custody?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, we have encouraged the use of community penalties whereby offenders can have either community service orders, attendance-centre orders or probation orders. All these provisions can be applied in order to keep offenders out of custody and make them work in the community.

§ Lord Murray of Epping Forest
My Lords, we all very much welcome the reduction in the number of custodial sentences, and we are also grateful to the Government for the policy changes that have been made. Does the noble Earl share the general anxiety that the number of young adults held in custody on remand has risen from 15,500 five years ago to about 17,500 now? Can he say when we can look forward to a similar initiative to reduce the number of these young people in custody, one of whom we saw on the roof at Strangeways prison a few weeks ago?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there has to be a place for people on remand to be held in custody. I can only tell the noble Lord that the offences committed by 17 to 20 year-old offenders have decreased over the past year or so from 132,000 in September 1988, to 116,000 in September 1989. Clearly, the strength and severity of the offences have to be taken into account when deciding whether an offender should be remanded in custody.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that his Answer is exceedingly welcome because a custodial sentence is not only almost the most expensive form of treatment that can be provided 1614 for a young offender, but it is also the treatment that is most certainly destined to result in further offences being committed? Therefore, does he not also agree that both common sense and experience with the younger age groups suggest that the most effective way of avoiding putting the indelible stamp of criminality on young people is through co-operation between the voluntary and statutory bodies? That costs a great deal less than any other treatment and it is also warmly to be encouraged.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that to hold people in custody is, on the whole, the most expensive way of dealing with them. However, sometimes that has to happen. My noble friend is quite right in saying that custody brings young people into the company of more experienced criminals who in turn will influence others. Custody also removes the young offender from the positive influences of family, school and job. Those influences are to be encouraged. That is the reason why we have tried to find whether it is possible for some co-operation to be obtained between the probation service, the voluntary sector and possibly the private sector. That is also the reason why we have issued a Green Paper. We are looking forward to receiving responses to it.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that the figures that he has given to the House concerning 17 to 20 year-olds and the remarks that he has just made about the probation service, reflect considerable credit on the probation service? Does he further agree that those factors indicate the growing confidence of the courts in that service? Doubts—which I think are wrong—have been expressed about the service at various times in the recent past.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. Those factors reflect great credit on the probation and the court service. They also reflect credit on people generally for their change of attitude. They are prepared to say that where persons have offended very badly, they have to be given custodial sentences. However, where they have not, it is better to impose a sentence which enables the offender to stay in the community and be punished and, at the same time, will not bring the offender into contact with hardened criminals.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penhros
My Lords, we welcome the figures given by the noble Lord. Is it not the case that 80 per cent. of young offenders who serve custodial sentences are reconvicted within about two years of their release? Does the noble Earl agree that it is also the case that the probation service, for which the noble Earl's department is responsible, is extremely concerned about that situation, and that it has complained about the lack of resources which are available? Can the noble Earl say what steps the Government are taking to strengthen the probation service, which is essential?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is as usual very nearly correct—he is usually correct. He mentioned a figure of 80 per 1615 cent. In fact the figure is not as high as that. Sixty-five per cent. of offenders under 21 who are released from custody re-offend within two years. That is a high figure. It is important not to put too many people into custody but there are some who need the kind of treatment which segregates them from the remainder of the community. The noble Lord referred to the probation service. A great deal is being done. The probation service stands in very high regard. It is having to make a slight readjustment of view because of the changes taking place with regard to people who are not now going to be held in custody.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, is the noble Earl able to say how many of those young offenders were given custodial sentences under the Vagrancy Act?

Earl Ferrers
Not without notice, my Lords.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, could not the change in approach to sentencing young offenders which has worked so well also be applied to older offenders? I believe that serious recommendations have been made to that effect. I hope that the noble Earl will consider them.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I think that that is being done. There are plenty of areas of scope for people to have their punishment within the community as opposed to being locked up in prison, which I know does not meet with the noble Lord's approval.