St. Thomas's Hospital: Facilities (Hansard, 22 June 1990)

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, this is a fast developing area of medicine. What were termed neonatal intensive care cots in 1979 bear little relationship to cots and their associated equipment today. However, experience has shown the number of neonatal intensive care cots at St. Thomas's Hospital to be adequate to meet most demands. On rare occasions, because of short periods when staff are not available or because there are unusually high numbers of babies requiring intensive care, there may be a need to seek cots elsewhere.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, I am very surprised by the Minister's statement concerning St. Thomas's Hospital. Is she aware of the recent statement by Dr. Anthony Kaiser, who is consultant for the special baby care unit at St. Thomas's Hospital, that babies are dying because London's hospitals are underfunded and understaffed? He said: 1170 We have only about half or two-thirds of the intensive-care cots needed for London and the surrounds. Some of the babies die, some hang on in less equipped units", and some have to be flown to other parts of the country. He is in charge of the unit.
Is that not a deeply disturbing situation? Is it not disturbing that the Minister holds a contrary view to that of the person who is responsible for the unit?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am aware of the press comment to which the noble Lord referred. There is an unpredictability about demand for those facilities. As I have said, on rare occasions babies will have to travel some distance for treatment. However, the facts are that infant mortality rates are improving. It has to be said that many more babies are being treated successfully today who would not have survived only a few years ago. We are not complacent, as I think the noble Lord was implying. We are acutely aware of this area of medicine. Research and development continues. Most health authorities, in particular that for South East Thames, have positive plans to develop that service.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there have been major cutbacks in expenditure in St. Thomas's which are partly responsible for the situation that I have brought to the attention of both your Lordships' House and the Minister? Does she really believe that such cutbacks do not indicate complacency? Does she deny the statement that babies are dying as a result of the situation?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I believe that the whole area of health spending needs to be put into perspective. Since 1979 waiting lists are shorter by 7 per cent. More patients are being treated; the figure has increased by 22 per cent. Infant mortality is down. Resources have risen since 1979 from £8 billion to £29 billion. There are more doctors, nurses and specialist units than ever before. We are not complacent. We believe that there is much to be done. However, the reforms will create an even better framework within which to build on the success of the NHS. They include better planning and better management. I believe that they will prevent the lurching from crisis to crisis that we have seen under the present situation.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, is the noble Baroness denying Dr. Kaiser's statement? Perhaps we can have that clear. Dr. Kaiser says that St. Thomas's needs four more intensive care cots to stop patients being turned away and babies dying. Is the noble Baroness denying the statement?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not denying the statement. I believe that the reference is to press comment. It is not part of my duty to respond to that. I am aware that more cots are needed in the area. I have just said that the health authority in question has positive plans to develop the service.

§ Lord McColl of Dulwich
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, is 1171 engaging in his usual practice of shroud waving? We have discussed the problems of St. Thomas's Hospital in this House many times, and the difficulty that it has had in living within its budget. It is deplorable that the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, should engage in this shroud waving activity.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's comments. Stories that rely exclusively on death do nothing for public confidence. They cause needless anxiety to patients and it does no service to those who care for the patients.

§ Lord Mulley
My Lords, will the noble Baroness explain to her noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich that his constant denigration of attacks on St. Thomas's is not in keeping with the spirit of co-operation that I understand his right honourable friend the Secretary of State desires in the National Health Service; and that it does no credit to the noble Lord or to the hospital of which he is a distinguished consultant?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I believe that my nobel friend Lord McColl puts what we are talking about in perspective, which is most valuable. I believe that he is a stout defender of the National Health Service.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, do the Government agree that it is right for Members on this side of the Chamber, and occasionally Members on the other side, to call the attention of the House by way of example to what is happening in the National Health Service? I am sure that the Government will agree that every one of us could cite examples of lack of resources available to the National Health Service from our own localities. It does the House no good to denigrate those people who give examples which reflect the total lack of resources and the need for increased resources in our National Health Service.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my comments were aimed at those who spend their time exclusively talking about the negative aspects of the National Health Service and who pay no credit whatever to its success.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the difficulty arises chiefly because as medicine advances so the demand on resources increases beyond our capacity to meet it? Does she also agree that to ignore that basic fact and to point out everything that goes wrong in this huge service does immense disservice to both the medical profession and the health service of this country?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for those comments. St. Thomas's Hospital is in the forefront of pioneering research in maintaining babies for longer periods in their mother's womb, so that when they are born their weight is greater, they are more robust, and that eliminates or reduces the need for intensive care unit facilities. My noble friend is therefore absolutely right.

§ Lord Carr of Hadley
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there has been no time during the past 42 years, during the life of the health service, when it would not have been possible to bring before your Lordships examples of the kind given today? I do not ask my noble friend to agree that nothing should be brought forward, but it may be helpful if good cases as well as bad cases are advanced so that we can thereby put the argument in balance.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. We must not be complacent, but it is a matter of perspective and that is important. I am also reminded that a few days ago the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, said that there would be no moment in time when the resources that are available, however generous, could be enough to meet all the demands of the people of this country.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, may I bring two good cases to the attention of the noble Baroness? In the past two years both my daughters gave birth to babies in St. Thomas's Hospital. Both births were extremely complicated and required caesarian re-section. No praise could be too high for the staff of that hospital, and I need hardly say that both operations were successful.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, again I am grateful for those comments. I am more than happy to join with the noble Lord in his great praise for the staff of that hospital.

§ Lord McColl of Dulwich
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that I have never denigrated the staff of St. Thomas's Hospital because I am the chairman of the Department of Surgery of both St. Thomas's Hospital and Guy's Hospital. The nurses and the doctors do a particularly fine job of work. It is the financial control that is the problem.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am more than happy to agree with my noble friend in those comments. The people who are denigrating the National Health Service are those who concentrate exclusively on the negative.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I deeply resent any suggestion that my approach to the National Health Service is negative? I have been involved with the National Health Service for over 20 years on one side of the House or another. I am involved with countless medical organizations; I am president of the College of Occupational Therapists, and so forth. My approach is very positive. Tomorrow I am presiding all day at a conference which I convened on co-operation—My Lords, I am being attacked. I am defending myself and I have a right in your Lordships' House so to do. Tomorrow I am presiding at a large conference on co-operation in the National Health Service.
Is the noble Baroness aware that I have the greatest respect for St. Thomas's Hospital and feel that I have a responsibility? If those who are working there believe that their ability to serve their patients is undermined by what the noble Lord, Lord McColl, 1173 calls "financial control" I have a responsibility to bring that matter forward. This Question concerns evidence that people are dying. Is there anyone in this House—the Minister in particular—who feels that it is not right that I should raise it in your Lordships' House? Where else should I raise it?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I would never deny the noble Lord's right to bring these matters to the attention of the House. My criticism concerned getting the right balance in the debate. The noble Lord has been highly condemning of a record of which we can be proud; that is, that waiting lists are shorter; more patients are being treated; more resources are being put in; infant mortality is down and there are more specialist units than ever before. There are also more doctors and nurses. A little credit for that record would not go amiss.