HL Deb 20 June 1990 vol 520 cc920-3

2.46 p.m.

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether, in the light of the contents of the report of the European Court of Auditors (0J-C133, 31st May) and the joint statement thereon made by the Treasury and the Minister of Agriculture of 30th May, they will now publish as a White Paper their own detailed proposals for dealing with fraud against Community funds.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Strathclyde)

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are not convinced that a White Paper is needed.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the audit report to which I refer contains particulars of some very grave frauds and irregularities within the European Community, and that there has been a report from the National Audit Office with regard to the United Kingdom? Over the past few months Her Majesty's Government have indicated that they take the matter very seriously indeed and that they have proposals under consideration. Why should the Government hide their light under a bushel? Why do they not publish their findings in order, among other things, to shame those of our fellow members of the Community who are doing very little about it into considering that they ought now to start to follow the United Kingdom's example.

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I join the noble Lord in commending the united government stand on this matter. The Commission has adopted an action programme for tackling fraud. At the instigation of the United Kingdom it now has procedures for considering special reports by the European Court of Auditors such as the recent report on export refunds. In January this year the Commission published its first annual report on fraud, which was debated in another place on 27th February. For its part, the UK takes every opportunity to ensure that the momentum of the fight against fraud is maintained. It is for those reasons that we do not feel that we are hiding our light under a bushel. After all, over the past few months we have had several Questions in the House on precisely this subject.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are frequently criticised as being non-communautaire by those very states in the European Community that are not following the United Kingdom's initiative in the matter? Does he not believe that if the Government make public the proposals that we have in mind it will help to stimulate our European colleagues?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, we continue to try to stimulate our European colleagues on this matter. I must emphaise that we have taken the lead in insisting that the Community should tackle seriously the problem of fraud and of inadequate management, which is at the root of the problem.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that whether or not a White Paper is necessary, public opinion in this country will be very interested in a ministerial Statement as soon as there is anything to report? Will he urge on his right honourable friend the necessity of making such a Statement in order to appease those members of the British public who are worried about the matter?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I shall certainly urge that suggestion on my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a Motion for Papers has recently been put down by the noble Lord, Lord Benson, in the no day named list to call attention to the volume of the fraud and to the need for specific programmes for reform? Does he consider it appropriate that through the usual channels arrangements be made for that most important matter to be considered by the House reasonably soon?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I am sure that the usual channels have heard my noble friend's suggestion. Concrete progress has been made in the area on export refund monitoring; on proof of arrival of export for claiming refunds; on a new code of conduct for reporting all significant frauds and irregularities in relation to structural fund receipts; and on tougher regulations relating to the payment of our own resources. We are not complacent. We believe that there is still a great deal to be done and we are in the vanguard of the fight against fraud.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, apart from the White Paper, are we to infer from the Minister's previous reply that the Government have considered or are considering further proposals which are not yet known to this House; or are they content to continue to make representations, as the Minister stated?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, we continue to fight fraud with our Community partners and with the Commission. In the United Kingdom we have already increased resources devoted to the undertaking of physical checks. We have provided extra training for Customs staff; we have insisted on better facilities for CAP export examinations; and we have concentrated special investigator-led drives in high risk areas. As I said, we are not complacent. We believe that there is still more work to be done.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I agree with noble Lords who have called for further and fuller information by way of ministerial statements or a government White Paper. Does the Minister agree that fraud in the Community is on a vast scale? Is he aware that the report of the recent commission on the fight against fraud stated that a large percentage of fraud takes place in agriculture? While I do not believe for one moment that British agriculture is involved in such fraud, can the Minister indicate what percentage of total fraud is committed in that area?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, it is difficult to answer the noble Lord's questions. No one knows what is the total amount of fraud against the Community budget. Various estimates have been made but I should not give more credence to one than to another by mentioning a figure. Therefore, it is not possible to give the noble Lord the percentage of the fraud which may have been committed by British agricultural producers.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, while the Minister may be unable to give a specific figure, does he agree that fraud within the Community is on a vast scale? Without going into detail, will he say that fraud in agriculture represents a substantial part?

Lord Strathclyde

Yes, my Lords.

Baroness Robson of Kiddington

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the number of people in Customs and Excise who devote their time to exports has been increased during the past year; and if so by how much? Can he say whether that section has now been computerised?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I may not be able to answer the noble Baroness's question fully. However, approximately 4,000 officers have been given extra training in order better to direct attention to higher risk areas.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, apart from White Papers and so forth, would it not be useful to the Government to know the views of noble Lords expressed in an objective debate? The subject has come before the House on no fewer than eight occasions in the past three years but always at Question Time?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I am sure that a debate can be organised through the usual channels.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, I appreciate that the House is spending a long time on the Question. However, can the Minister put the history of the subject in proportion? Does he remember that about three years ago the European Commission put forward a proposal to the Council of Ministers to deal with fraud in Community levies and trading but it was blocked by the British Government in the Council? Is it correct that the Prime Minister's attention was drawn to the fact that this is a large and important area of fraud and that now the Government are pulling out all the stops to try to prevent it?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I am not sure that the historical perspective has anything to do with the Question.