Academics: Migration (Hansard, 14 June 1990)

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the best evidence available, from the universities statistical record, does not support the view that there is a net outflow of academics overseas or that the quality of those leaving is higher than those remaining. The Government have invited the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals to provide better information. We await its findings with interest.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Although the overall figures may sustain what she says, is it not a fact that it is the quality of those leaving that causes concern? Every year since 1981 more readers and senior lecturers 405 have left than have arrived. Some key professors, particularly in science and engineering, have also left. Does that not cause the Government concern?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, in my first response I said there is no evidence that the quality of those leaving is higher than that of those remaining. My information is contrary to that of the noble Baroness. The figures that I have seen do not uphold what she has said about a net outflow overseas.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, is the Minister aware that over one-fifth of the Fellows of the Royal Society live abroad? Does she not agree that the loss of those most eminent scientists is damaging to the nation? Will she say what the Government propose to do about that?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, again my evidence is at odds with that of the noble Baroness. I have figures on the Fellows of the Royal Society if the noble Baroness will bear with me while I look for them.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I can help the noble Baroness by assuring her that the figures I have provided are accurate.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, we came upon this matter rather quickly. However, I shall have to find the figures and write to the noble Baroness as I must not keep the House waiting.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, will my noble friend say how this situation compares with the time when taxation was high? Is the outward migration less now or is it the same?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, there is a net inflow of academics into this country.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, perhaps I can help the noble Baroness. The official figures which I have show that there has been a net outflow of senior lecturers in the past nine years. I shall have great pleasure in showing the noble Baroness those figures later. Is it not another cause for anxiety that a number of postdoctoral and senior research members of university teams are leaving? That is especially worrying as regards a lack of staff in the future in the departments that they are leaving. Is not that departure the result not only of less money but also of fewer facilities, fewer opportunities and less money for research here, whereas in the United States and Canada there are far better facilities and much more money is available for research?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, a basic principle is being ignored; namely, that we live in a free country and we must not restrain people if they wish to go abroad or if they wish to come into this country. Even so, the figures show that fewer than 10 per cent. of former research council supported students take up academic posts abroad. The figures for post-doctoral academics mentioned by the noble Baroness do not stand up to the evidence that we have.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, all I can say is that we must have different figures. I shall have great pleasure in consulting the noble Baroness afterwards.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, does the Minister agree that poor pay and poor facilities must be a disincentive for academics? Is she not aware of the fact that many academics feel deeply demoralised by the fact that their pay has fallen more than that of any other public sector group in this country over the past 10 years? Can she say what the Government will do to rectify the problems of the universities and polytechnics in paying their staff adequately?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I cannot agree with the noble Baroness. The agreement reached between the employers and the Association of University Teachers, which is currently under consideration by the Government, would provide for an increase of 9 per cent. on all salaries from 1st May. A further 1 per cent. for flexibility will be payable from January 1991 and will build in further discretionary elements based on previous settlements.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, while she has made general assertions and has denied the facts put forward by noble Baronesses on this side of the House, she has not provided one single piece of hard evidence to controvert anything that has been said?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, if the noble Lord wishes to have hard evidence I shall write to him giving further details.
I now have figures concerning Fellows of the Royal Society. Some suggest that the brain drain is best demonstrated by the increasing number of Fellows of the Royal Society resident in the United States of America. My honourable friend took up the point with the Royal Society last year. There are currently 77 British Fellows resident in America. Of those, more than two-thirds have been there since before 1979.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is another factor which contributes to the brain drain; namely, the age discrimination factor? A number of people have to leave this country because they are too old at 40, 45 or younger. Would she care to comment on the effect that that has in forcing people to leave this country to take employment elsewhere?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I should like the noble Lord to write to me with his evidence showing that there is age discrimination in this area.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, I sympathise with what the noble Baroness said about freedom of choice, but is she also aware that in most fields, certainly including my own, the number of junior academic appointments available is so small that it is essential to advise postgraduates that if they wish for academic employment they must seek it abroad?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, on the subject of younger academics, the new academic appointments 407 scheme which was started by the UGC and is being continued by the UFC enables universities to make appointments in advance of the many vacancies which will be created by retirements in the mid-1990s. That is extremely helpful to young academics. The Royal Society is extending its scheme of university research fellowships. About 200 of those fellowships will be supported this year. In addition, the research councils are increasing the number of long-term post-doctoral fellowships. All of that must be very good news for young academics.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, would not the noble Baroness be better advised to accept that while there has always been a brain drain—and I well remember asking questions about it in the 1960s—the brain drain today is very much more serious, and for easily explicable reasons?
If there is a bulge in the age group of academics which means that promotion is very difficult to obtain, if there are no funds available for the universities to maintain the standards that they used to have only some 15 years ago, why do the Government not explain that those are the facts? Why do they not explain that circumstances make it impossible for the Government to fund universities as they should be funded because the Government are putting money into the education of the workforce through training schemes for the workforce? Or perhaps that is not the policy of the Government. Will they explain whether they have a policy of priorities in higher education?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not sure what the noble Lord is saying about our priorities for agreeing that training is very important. I do not agree with the premise. We have asked the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals to provide better information. That request for better information will include data and qualification for that data.
I have to say that at this moment my brain feels fairly drained.

§ Lord Morris of Castle Morris
My Lords, does the noble Baroness have any figures available about those people who have been obliged to take premature retirement from departments in our universities and have immediately been snapped up by universities overseas?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the exodus of academics from universities is very much a matter for the management of those universities.