Carbon Dioxide Emissions (Hansard, 12 June 1990)

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, carbon dioxide emissions are directly related to fuel consumption. The Government already encourage motorists to keep fuel economy in mind and we are considering whether further measures are appropriate. We are also awaiting proposals from the European Commission.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I have two questions for the noble Viscount. First, is he aware that on 30th April the Secretary of State for Transport declared to a conference held by the Worldwide Fund for Nature that no substantial reduction in carbon dioxide emissions from vehicles could be expected over the next 20 years? Does that not suggest a conflict in policy between the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment? Secondly, will the noble Viscount tell the House why the British Government have chosen the year 2005 as a target for stabilising emissions whereas the rest of Europe, except for Spain, has chosen the year 2000?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am afraid that I was not at the conference to which the noble Lord refers. However, if that is the estimate of my right honourable friend I have no reason to quarrel with him or to differ from him. As regards the second part of the question, the Government are taking a realistic view of what is achievable by the year 2005.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, does not the first Answer of my noble friend clearly indicate that the amount of carbon dioxide produced by any vehicle driven by oil or petrol depends on how it is driven? Will the Government consider including within the Highway Code advice on minimising the production of CO₂ if I send them some suggestions?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I look forward to hearing the suggestions of my noble friend. We have urged the Commission to look into ways of reducing CO₂ emissions from vehicles and it is now committed to doing so. Meanwhile CO₂ emissions can be minimised by improving fuel consumption. We urge motorists to keep fuel economy in mind. Smooth, careful driving and good regular vehicle maintenance are the key.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, does the Minister agree that carbon dioxide emissions from vehicles could be minimised by diverting more passengers to public transport with its larger carrying capacity? Does he further agree that that should be part of government policy?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I look forward to hearing the noble Lord advise me how I can divert people from private cars to public transport.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, are the Government still involved in the development of the lean burn engine as well as the catalytic converter? The Minister will be aware that perhaps the best way of reducing emissions of carbon dioxide from internal combustion engines is a combination of the two. Have the Government made any effort to discuss with governments of other countries ways of encouraging the production of smaller cars? One feels that large cars which mostly carry single individuals must be wasteful.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the Government recognise that the lean burn engine is one of several technologies that can show improved fuel efficiency and thus lower CO₂ emissions. We are keeping a close eye on efforts in the motor industry to develop lean burn engines that would also be able to meet the emission standards for carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen that have been set for the European Community. As regards small cars, the Government are looking at that matter, at the moment.

§ Viscount Cross
My Lords, will my noble friend say whether Her Majesty's Government recommend the tuning of engines for maximum efficiency? Will he also confirm that, most regrettably, catalytic converters and "green" petrol provide fewer miles to the gallon and, therefore, greater discharges of 151 carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for any given distance?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am not the scientist that my noble friend is, but my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport disclosed in an interview in the Independent of 8th June some of the ideas he is considering for controlling CO₂ emissions from road transport. One of those, the MOT testing of vehicle emissions, has already been agreed with the Prime Minister and other colleagues.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that one measure which is certain not to persuade more people to use public transport is the building of more and larger roads? Is he aware that county councils up and down the country and his own department propose huge capital expenditure on roads which will simply attract more private traffic? Would it not be better if that money was spent on providing a proper infrastructure for public transport, both in town and elsewhere?

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, that goes rather wide of the Question. If all road-building were to stop, congestion would continue to increase and accidents and pollution would increase with it. One cannot just wish a problem away. The department would be overwhelmed by people who have been waiting years for bypasses and now see their hopes dashed. I cannot agree with the noble Lord.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, when the noble Viscount said that the Government are keeping a close eye on the development of lean burn engines, what exactly did he mean? Are they offering inducements for the development of such engines or is there some other way of keeping a close eye on the matter?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, there is only one way of keeping a close eye on it, and that is keeping a close eye on it. I said that we were keeping a close eye on developments.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would it be possible for the Government at least to consider having talks with the larger district councils, the metropolitan boroughs and the London boroughs to see what can be done to improve standards of public transport and so make a contribution to easing the problem?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question, but it is rather wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Baroness Sharpies
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that animals such as cattle produce one-third of the total carbon dioxide emissions within the global system and that it would be rather more difficult to cope with that problem than with the motor car?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not think that I can answer that question.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Viscount says that the British Government have asked the European Commission to look at the matter. Is it not a fact that the environment commissioner has stated that the year 2000 is the very latest by which carbon dioxide emissions should be stabilised and that the British Government have disagreed with him? If the noble Viscount is looking for means of improving public transport, will he consider transferring the £2.8 billion subsidy allocated to company cars each year to improving public transport facilities?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I believe that that last question amounts almost to a record for being wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Noble Lords
No!

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, it is wide of the Question. The Government are committed to applying strict European Community standards. We understand that the Commission has now proposed a consolidated directive on emissions of the regulated pollutants but we still await the final text. The directive will require catalysts for all types of cars from 1992. It will set standards for evaporative emissions and will introduce an extra urban driving cycle into the test procedure. I have already answered the point about the difference between the year 2005 and the year 2000 by saying that the Government are taking a realistic view of what is achievable.