Scotland: Community Charge Administration (Hansard, 25 July 1990)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)
My Lords, I recognise that some difficulties remain in certain areas but most initial problems have been largely overcome and overall local authorities now appear to be administering the system both effectively and efficiently.

§ Lord Stodart of Leaston
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Perhaps I may express my relief that despite various rather gloomy forecasts in the Scottish press he still occupies his position.
Is my noble friend aware that the principle of the community charge is being undermined by the complexity of its operation? This is confirmed by the reported evidence given in Glasgow Sheriff Court by Strathclyde Regional Council that there was a pile-up of never less than 20,000 letters about the community charge on any one day. Will my noble friend urge upon his right honourable friend that in any amendments which may be made to the community charge, simplification is of vital importance?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his opening remarks. It just proves that one should not believe everything one reads in the Scottish press!
The fact that some local authorities still encounter basic administration problems is for them to resolve. They have been adequately resourced. It is not a 1440 symptom of a wider problem with the community charge, which in the great majority of cases for the great majority of people is working well. I accept, however, as I did in my opening Answer, that we have problems in some areas which must be overcome.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, are the Government unable to say how many extra staff have been appointed in Scotland to deal with the poll tax, as stated to me in a Written Answer last week?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, that is an entirely different question. I know that in Lothian there was a request for 48 extra staff to deal with the community charge. That brought about a court case because the local authority did not wish to appoint them. However, I am glad to know that the court case has now been satisfactorily resolved.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, can the Minister say what would be the policy if, as it appears, thousands of people in Scotland feel that the poll tax is so unjust that they ought to have the courage—and some probably will—to resist it? What would happen then?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I know that some people in Scotland can pay and will not pay: that is perfectly true. It just means that those who pay have to carry more of a burden. I have to say to the noble Lord that I am not particularly impressed with the replacement of the community charge by the roof tax, as proposed for Scotland.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, my noble friend will recall that I raised various points at Question Time concerning the standard charge and the interpretation of the second homes legislation for Scotland. Does he agree that the solutions which were found after a year of the poll tax, the community charge, in Scotland have led to a great improvement in the situation since 1st April for England and Wales?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Yes, my Lords. I thank my noble friend for that. We made some changes during the course of last year. Only last week my right honourable friend announced further changes. A number of improvements have been made to the community charge relief scheme, including the extension of the scheme by two years and a reduction in the threshold for relief from £3 to £2. There are a number of additions to the prescribed classes for standard community charge purposes which I know my noble friend will welcome. Most important of all to me, as the Minister with responsibility for tourism, bed and breakfast accommodation for up to six people is to be exempt from non-domestic rates.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, as a Londoner, although it is impertinent of me to interfere in Scottish affairs, nevertheless my common sense tells me that those who do not pay the community charge would not have paid rates either.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, the noble Lord may well have a point. Nevertheless a considerable number of people have not yet paid the community charge. I hope they realise what they are doing to those who have paid it.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, following on from the previous question, can the noble Lord tell us how 1441 the rates of collection of the community charge compare with the former collection of rates? That may be a great help to the House.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Viscount details. All I can say is that to date I do not think that the allowances which some authorities have made for bad debt provision—I hope I may put it that way—have been sufficient to meet the differential between what has been collected and what was expected to be collected. At the moment the estimated shortfall is £135 million. However, that should be compared with a budgeted charge income of £1,020 million for that year. I shall see whether I can find any further information for the noble Viscount and I shall write to him.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, it has been put to me that some councils in Scotland are making much more determined efforts than others to collect a high proportion of the community charge. Can my noble friend tell me whether the figures bear this out?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Yes, my Lords. There is no doubt at all that in Grampian region, for example, the rate of collection has been good. As it happens, Grampian region had allowed for a bigger bad debt provision than some other authorities. However, it would be invidious of me to refer to any other authorities. I believe we may be able to learn some lessons from the experience in England as regards the follow-up period after the time of collection. In England the first bill can be followed up with action after one month, whereas in Scotland it is followed up after three months.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, the Minister will perhaps be aware of the letter sent to the Secretary of State by the convenor of CoSLA, Mrs. Jean McFadden. CoSLA realises that it has a duty to collect this charge and it realises that if local government is to continue, the money must be collected. However, the officials of CoSLA have certainly reached the conclusion that the community charge constitutes a much greater administrative burden than even they predicted. They have made a number of helpful suggestions which the Minister may know about: for example, the need for publicity to encourage early notification of a change on the part of citizens who move house. One of the biggest difficulties that arises when citizens move house, even within the same district, is that a totally new file has to be opened on them.
CoSLA has suggested that the forms should be re-examined. As the Minister will no doubt be aware, some of the forms are extremely complicated. CoSLA has further suggested that the definitions of exemptions should be simplified. It is difficult to assess where merchant seamen and people working on oil rigs stand as regards the community charge. It is also difficult to assess the standing of elderly people who may stay with relatives for an extended period but who still have their own home. All these problems are real. I hope that the Minister will read the letter from CoSLA and perhaps place the reply in the Library.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, we are well aware of the difficulties that can arise with some local authorities. There are ongoing discussions on how to improve the system. Cash provisions for making the necessary changes to the community charge have been well covered by the Government.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, how can the Government defend the justice—

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, will forgive me for pointing out that we have spent eight minutes on the first Question. We have three more Questions to discuss and your Lordships have already decided that 20 minutes should be the average length of time allowed for Question Time. It would be helpful to the House if we could pass on to the next Question.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, how can the Government defend the justice—

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, will give way. When we have spent a certain amount of time on a Starred Question—we have now spent nine minutes on this Question—it is normal to pass to the next Starred Question. I hope that the noble Lord opposite will feel that he can leave the matter there on this occasion.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, this is not the first time that the Government Chief Whip has done this to me. How can the Government defend—

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will not continue. I am trying to relay the feelings of the House. We have now spent 10 minutes on the first Question. I hope that we can pass on to the next Question.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, we are rather wasting time unnecessarily. As I understand it, the Procedure Committee recommended that there should be a certain elasticity and that a desirable amount of time to spend on any Question is seven minutes. In those circumstances I feel that my noble and distinguished friend should be allowed to ask his question.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, how can the Government defend the justice of a tax where a highly paid company chairman—there are a lot of them about—pays exactly the same amount as a bus conductor or a farm labourer? Does not the inherent injustice of this tax have a great deal to do with the non-payment of it?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
No, my Lords.