Long-Term Unemployed (Hansard, 23 July 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, in April 1990, the latest available date, there were 539,725 claimants in the United Kingdom who had been unemployed for at least a year.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, will the Minister explain why that huge number of men and women is unaware of the economic miracle which has taken place under this Government? As the Government have now been in power for 11 years, and as the measures related to long-term unemployment have failed, is it not time for a complete reappraisal of the measures used to deal with long-term unemployment, especially as unemployment is now increasing again and is likely to do so for a long time?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Dormand of Easington, was rising to congratulate the Government on the fact that long-term unemployment is now at its lowest level for seven years. We continue to have a variety of programmes aimed specifically at the long-term unemployed, such as employment training, Restart courses and job clubs.

§ Lord Wade of Chorlton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that over the past two years the number of people employed in this country has increased by 1.5 million and that now, with 27 million people employed, there are more people employed than ever before? Does my noble friend agree that the Government have an excellent record in developing employment opportunities?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I commend my noble friend for his words. He is correct. We now have more people working in this country than has ever been the case.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, is the Minister aware that long-time unemployment is difficult for the older worker? Is he also aware that I 1189 recently received a letter from a 54-year old in Southampton who lists no fewer than 18 different courses that he has tried in order to obtain employment, all of which were fruitless? What will be done about people in that position? It is quite unacceptable.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right. The effects of long-term unemployment on older people continue to concern the Government. However, I must point out that among the over 50s, unemployment is less than half what it was three years ago. We have recently introduced a new framework on Restart counselling which includes Back to Work plans, a new advisory system of interviews, a unified advisory service and more rigorous follow up of those who repeatedly turn down offers of help.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, are the figures available for the rather worrying feature of unemployment involving young folk who have served and completed their apprenticeships and then go on the dole? Can the Minister say whether the matter has been examined and the figures are available? If not, will it be examined?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, even for young people aged from 18 to 24 years the figures are down by over a quarter since 1989. The total figure is less than a third of what it was three years ago. That is essentially good news, but we still have the programmes involved with getting people back to work as quickly and effectively as possible.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, will the Minister agree that on his figures, if we adjust for changes in the increases or reductions in the claimant count, the number of long-term unemployed on previous estimates would rise to over 700,000? Does he further agree that when we take into account the use of Restart, Back to Work and ET to reclassify the long-term and short-term unemployed, the figures must be even greater?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, is talking about. I have given the figures. If he feels that there is a problem with them, no doubt he can ask me another Question.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have been at a conference at which his right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister said that the Government were interested in finding employment for the over 50s? Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the Government are doing since they are interested in the issue.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, as I said, we have beefed up the Restart scheme to encourage older people to find employment. We continually encourage employers to look at the full scope of the available workforce.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the numbers employed in manufacturing industry fell by 18,000 in March? That is according to the latest figures I have available. It was the largest fall in manufacturing employment since the beginning of 1989 when the figure was 46,000 in one year. Is he 1190 further aware that rising unemployment in industry means that our manufacturing base is being seriously eroded? Does that not bode ill for 1992?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we are talking about the long-term unemployed, not people who are employed in manufacturing industries.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say how long it is before one becomes unemployed? Is it 12 months? If that is the right period, how are the figures broken down? They stop at the age of 60. But how are the figures broken down from the teenager to 30, and 30 to 60, in age groups?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I can confirm to my noble friend that the definition applies after 12 months. As for the individual figures, we have three definitions: 18 to 24 year-olds; over 25s; and over 50s. I shall have to write to the noble Lord regarding those figures.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, the Minister's reply to my noble friend Lord Mason of Barnsley was that we were not talking about the manufacturing industries, but the long-term unemployed. Can the Minister tell us what proportion of the long-term unemployed come from the manufacturing industries? Surely that is important.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not think that that is within the scope of the Question. Perhaps I may direct the noble Lord to the remark of my noble friend Lord Wade. He said that there were more people in jobs today than ever before.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, in one of his replies the Minister referred to employment training. As he knows, the application of employment training has come in for much criticism recently. Are the Government satisfied with the present position in relation to ET?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we continually review employment training to make it more effective and responsive to the needs of employers.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, may I remind the Minister and his noble friend who spoke about the increased number of people in employment that I was not referring to that. I referred to long-term unemployment which is the biggest blot on the Government's employment record. Does the Minister realise that with more intelligent policies, the half million long-term unemployed—which figure is absolutely disgraceful—could be self-financing, with a decrease in social security payments and benefits and an increase in tax revenues?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we believe in providing people with real long-term jobs. That is what we have been doing successfully since 1979.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us what the level of long-term unemployed was for 1979, since he has just referred to it?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I referred to the creation of real jobs since 1979. It is not possible to make a meaningful comparison with the long-term unemployment figures for 1979. However, I can tell 1191 the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, that since 1982 there has been a considerable reduction in the number of long-term unemployed.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that that answer is somewhat wide of the question?

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, will the Minister accept that the actual answer was 250,000?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have already replied to the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy. I know that he has a long running battle with the statistics that the Department of Employment provides. I have to tell the House that our figures are correct.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, bearing in mind that there is a frequent comparison with 1979 from different Ministers on different Questions, why, under this Question, will the Minister not give the figures for 1979?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, precisely because the figures are unadjusted and so subject to changes in coverage. There is no consistent seasonally adjusted series of figures available for the long-term unemployed, as there are for total unemployment. Prior to October 1982, the count was based on those registering at Jobcentres rather than those claiming at unemployment benefit offices. I believe that that fully answers the question of the noble Lord.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, is it not a fact that the Government have changed the way in which the statistics are calculated so many times—about 20—that meaningful comparisons have become almost impossible?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we have changed the system of claimant count twice.