HL Deb 18 July 1990 vol 521 cc888-93

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.

[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]

Clause 33 [Winding up and dissolution of new town development corporations]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 3: Page 27, line 11, at end insert: ("(3) In granting consent as provided in subsection (2) above, but also in respect of the period from the date of commencement of this section and during the wind-up period the Secretary of State shall secure that each tenant of any house owned by a development corporation, if that house may be transferred or disposed of to a new landlord, shall have the right to choose that the landlord shall be one of the following bodies namely, a Housing Association, a Housing Corporation, the District Council in which the new town is situated, Scottish Homes or such other body as may be approved for that purpose by Scottish Homes provided that the landord chosen by the tenant is willing to accept that tenant").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Government have clearly stated that they will consider the transfer of houses to district councils at the wind-up of the new towns. However, we believe that tenants require to be informed exactly what the position will be. As well as considering district councils, the Government should accept them as transfer options for tenants if that is the express wish of the tenants. This amendment is worded so that the preferred choice of the tenant is paramount.

The Government cannot dispute the validity of the tenants' express wishes. The Minister will be well aware that recent surveys clearly demonstrate the wishes of new town tenants and have shown conclusively that the majority of such tenants wish to have the choice of transferring their tenancies to the appropriate district council. The latest survey results demonstrate very clearly that tenants' awareness of the Government's housing proposals is high. That awareness has increased considerably since 1989.

Furthermore, that increased awareness has resulted in an increased proportion of tenants wishing to choose their district councils both now and at the wind-up. During Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, said that the Government would consider district councils as an option at wind-up. The Minister is very well aware that we want the Government to go further and agree to district councils becoming a definite option at the wind-up. That is the purpose and intention of this amendment.

It is important to remember that tenants transferring to district councils even at the wind-up will still retain the right to choice. Therefore, at a later date they can opt for an alternative landlord. The wording of the defence put forward by the Minister for tenants not having a choice until the actual wind-up—though other tenants would have—has caused us considerable worry. There is the question of where the local authority new town houses are. At the end of the day they may be the worst stock of new town houses—that is to say, those built earlier or during a period when money was tighter than at other times. It is important that local authorities as well as the tenants should have some rights in this matter. I beg to move.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, I wish to support my noble friend Lord Carmichael on this amendment. When a similar amendment was discussed at Committee stage the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, said (Official Report, 3rd July, col. 2067): I said that the commitment of the Government to the White Paper is absolute, and we shall carry through the whole operation of wind-up regarding housing in accordance with what is written in the White Paper". The Minister was good enough to send me a copy of the White Paper. I turned to it to see what the commitment was. Page 10, paragraph 5.9 says: It would appear that current policies of extending housing choices is supported by the survey findings. Clearly there is a need for tenants to become more fully informed of all the options before final decisions are taken. The sole and automatic transfer of development corporation housing to district councils would run directly counter to the expressed wishes of a significant number of tenants and close off options for those who have yet to make up their minds.

Paragraph 5.10 says: At wind-up the development corporations' role as landlords will cease to exist. Choices, therefore, have to be made at that time. The position in each town will be carefully considered once an order for dissolution has been made. Formal consultations will be held with the development corporations, district councils, and representative tenant groups to review the position and to determine to what extent transfers might take place be it to housing associations, co-operatives, district councils, private or other landlords. Those tenants who have not transferred to other landlords will be transferred to Scottish Homes at wind-up with a view to pursuing further diversification with the small, residual number of houses.

In the previous discussion the Minister referred to the blue pamphlet which had been sent to all tenants in new town houses. I looked to see to what extent that so-called informative leaflet carried out what was stated in the White Paper. On the first page, under the heading The Choice is Yours, it is stated that tenants can normally buy their homes "probably" at a discount. It is to be noted that it says "probably" with a discount and not "certainly" with a discount, as it is with local authorities. It further says: You may be able to change landlords to a housing association, a housing co-operative and approved landlords.

There is no reference there to the district council. On the next page under the heading "During wind-up", the blue pamphlet states: Among the options the Government will consider will be transfers to housing associations, housing co-operatives, district councils and other landlords". The succeeding pages tell the tenants what is available to them. Concerning alternative landlords, some information is given about housing associations and housing co-operatives. The next page deals with other landlords. There is reference made to other bodies which may include the staff of the development corporation. There is again no reference to district councils.

So any tenant reading that document in even the most careful manner will not be made immediately aware that he has, among the options available, the opportunity to choose to go to the district council. On reading the document, a tenant may think that the only organisation which has the right to consider going to the district councils is the Government. That is among the options that they will consider, but, on the face of it, it is not available to the tenant.

That is the position concerning the leaflet. I have referred already to col. 2067 of the Official Report of 3rd July. I shall now refer to another part of the same column. The noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, was speaking about Amendment No. 18 when he said: As I understand it, the noble Lord's amendment is to transfer the whole of the development corporation housing to the local authority. As I understand it, that is the amendment with which we are now dealing". That was a total misunderstanding of the amendment because the amendment included district councils as one of the bodies to which the houses should be made available. In order that the Minister does not fall into the same error the amendment this time very carefully uses the words which the Government used in their White Paper. The amendment says that, if the house may be transferred or disposed of to a new landlord, the tenant, shall have the right to choose that the landlord shall be one of the following bodies namely, a Housing Association, a Housing Corporation, the District Council in which the new town is situated, Scottish Homes or such other body as may be approved for that purpose by Scottish Homes provided that the landlord chosen by the tenant is willing to accept that tenant". I suggest to the Minister that there is nothing in this amendment which is other than what was stated in the Government's White Paper. I cannot see how the Minister could possibly again decline to accept the amendment. If the Government are not prepared to put this in the Bill it will leave in the minds of many people the suspicion that they have no intention of giving any more houses to a district council than they can possibly help.

The Minister is a reasonable person. I have no doubt that he has given assurances in the past, although the exchanges on the Statement perhaps make us a little wary of what Ministers say at one time compared with another. I am certain that what he says in this connection is what he definitely believes is the Government's intention and what he believes will happen. But some funny things are going on in the Scottish Office at the present time. I should hate to think that the present Minister of State will not be the Minister of State after the reshuffle next week. Some funny statements have been made by Mrs. Thatcher's ambassador at Stirling. He has increasingly been talking as though he were already a member of the Cabinet instead of an Under-Secretary of State at the Scottish Office. If after the reshuffle the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, is still Minister of State for Scotland, he can be assured that that choice will be preferred by noble Lords on this side of the House as well.

5 p.m.

Lord Sanderson of Bowden

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, for raising this matter. The amendment, which I notice has been changed, seeks to give tenants the right to choose a new landlord from a prescribed list and requires that they be given the right to choose from the date of commencement of this section. We had this debate before. I freely admit to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, that, in regard to his second quotation from Hansard, I was perhaps misreading the amendment moved at that time. It required that tenants be given the right to choose from the date of commencement of the section.

On the question of when tenants will be asked for their views, the recent SLANT survey confirmed that tenants felt the most appropriate time for this was towards the end of the winding-up period. It should be remembered that, for Irvine, that is the better part of a decade away.

On the issue of choice, as we have said so often before, we are concerned to allow tenants to make decisions in the interim which are consistent with the Government's housing policy objectives set out in the White Paper; namely, increasing home ownership and widening choice in the rented sector. I do not wish to make party political points in this respect but all parties can at times get things wrong. Indeed, Lord Ross, whom we praised from this Dispatch Box earlier this afternoon, got it wrong when he said that further tasks in Scotland in respect of housing were not going to be done in the private sector.

That is totally wrong, as the evidence clearly shows. Almost two-thirds of the corporation's stock in Cumbernauld new town is now owned. That is a real achievement. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, is also interested in this matter. I can tell him that in East Kilbride approximately 13,500 houses out of a total stock of 24,500 have been sold to owner-occupiers.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that a considerable part of that took place while I was chairman of East Kilbride Development Corporation.

Lord Sanderson of Bowden

My Lords, the noble Lord makes my point for me. I am delighted that he, among others in his party, now realises that home ownership is important, and the right to buy legislation in Scotland is proving to be successful.

Neither of those objectives—increasing home ownership and widening choice in the rented sector—will be met by now allowing transfers to the district council. During our deliberation in Committee on Amendment No. 17 I invited the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, to accept the sincerity and constancy of the Government's and the development corporation's position on the issue of consultation. I further said that we take the consultation process seriously, especially as regards the homes of various tenants. The noble Lord's amendment today takes us back over that ground in due course to the strength of our commitment to consultation and the heed we shall take of tenants' views.

The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, asked me during that debate whether the Government's commitment to take into account what tenants wanted necessarily meant acceptance of what tenants wished. My commitment then was clear. I quote: The Government will of course take into account what tenants want".—[Official Report, 3/7/90; col. 2066.] That commitment would seem fully to meet the terms of this amendment. It is an honourable commitment to consultation at the appropriate stage in the wind-up process with representative tenants' groups. It is a commitment which was made in the White Paper and which I am happy to give again today.

Various points were made during this short debate. I was asked whether the amendment is consistent with the White Paper. No; the White Paper and the tenants themselves see the end of wind-up as the time for such a decision. The amendment tries to make the choice available now. I have already dealt with that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, mentioned eligibility for right to buy discounts. There is no statutory difference in eligibility for discounts between tenants of district councils and tenants of development corporations. The leaflet takes account of exemptions to right to buy caused by tenancy factors—for example, the length of the tenancy or where the house itself is exempt because it was built to meet the needs of the disabled. That is why that phrase is used in the pamphlet.

I have now covered the ground a second time. The commitment which I gave on the first occasion stands. I am afraid that I cannot accept the amendment.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, the Minister said that we had been over this ground before. He is quite correct. However, there is one difference, and that difference is also the reason for the earlier amendment being withdrawn and the new amendment being submitted. The difference is that we now have the pamphlet, which shows, as my noble friend Lord Hughes pointed out with great clarity, an apparent change of mind by the Government. The one thing that was excluded from the pamphlet but which was in the White Paper was the local authority.

I am sure that we shall not get much further on this point. I agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend Lord Hughes about the desirability of the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, remaining as Minister of State, although in purely electoral terms it would suit us if there were a slightly different reshuffle at the Scottish Office. Instead of winning three seats we would probably win five, if what my noble friend Lord Hughes fears worst came to pass.

The noble Lord referred to the private sector solving housing problems. One of our basic objections to the sale of local authority houses was that the local authority did not get the money to plough back into housing. It received only part of the money. However, I realise that in this instance we shall not get much further. Nevertheless, I think that this will cause considerable disquiet in the new towns; that is, not just in Irvine, which is a long way off, but also in East Kilbride and Cumbernauld which are likely to be wound up much earlier. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.