§ 11.21 a.m.
§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ How many individual shareholders there were in the United Kingdom (a) in 1979 and (b) on the most recent convenient date.
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, it is estimated that there were under 3 million individual shareholders in 1979, whereas there were nearly 11 million individuals owning shares at the time of the latest survey in February 1990.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for those extremely interesting and encouraging figures. Is he aware that they constitute a vivid illustration of the change for the better in the economic and social structure of our society which has taken effect during the past 10 years?
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for those remarks. Share ownership is at its highest ever level; there are nearly 11 million individual shareholders. There has been an unprecedented growth in the number of shareholders from 7 per cent. to 24 per cent. in six years.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, in order to get the whole question of shareholding into perspective, will the noble Earl confirm that of the total number of shares issued, only 20 per cent. are held by individuals? Most of the shares are owned by unit trusts, finance houses, banks and other corporations. Will the Minister also confirm that within that 20 per cent., 80 per cent. of the shares are held by the top richest 2 per cent. of the population in the country, which represents 840,000? That leaves very little for the small individual shareholders. The dividends they receive are possibly barely enough to pay their increased poll tax.
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, I shall answer the noble Lord's second point first. Over two-thirds of shareholders are outside social classes A and B. In no age group is share ownership less than 10 per cent., and in no region of Great Britain is it below 16 per cent., compared with the 7 per cent. national average in 1979. There are now more shareholders than there are trade union members.
In answer to the noble Lord's first point regarding institutions, the surge of individual share ownership has slowed the trend of institutions controlling more corporate equity. Institutions should not be considered as villains; they represent collective investments by individuals for pensions and so forth.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that if we want a community in which wealth is better shared, it is better that we should follow the Conservative principle, as we have done, of levelling upwards rather than the socialist principle of trying to level downwards?
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, again I am grateful to my noble friend for those remarks. Perhaps I could give him an example of the 551 privatisation which has begun in Hungary. In June the first company, a travel agency called Ibusz, floated successfully on the Budapest and Vienna stock exchanges. British lawyers and brokers were advising the state privatisation agency. That is a splendid example of the United Kingdom exporting our successful policies.
§ Lord MulleyMy Lords, may I dissent from the views of the noble Lord, Lord Renton? It would be interesting to know how many new shareholders are the result of privatisation schemes where the Treasury has benefited by selling capital assets to which over the years it has made no contribution; for example, gas, water and electricity to come. All the capital has been ploughed back from moneys received, in some cases initially from local authorities, but for the most part from the consumers of those industries who receive no part of the benefit from the sale of the assets.
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, 29 major businesses have been privatised since 1979. Public flotations have given individuals a chance to own shares. Over ½ million employees have become shareholders on privatisation; most have kept their shares.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, as Ministers are often char—no doubt rightly—of allowing a question to be widened in supplementaries, may we take it from the Minister's last supplementary answer but one, which gave the interesting news about shareholding in Hungary, that the Government will now be more tolerant of supplementary questions going wide of the main Question?
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneNo, my Lords. I was merely trying to give an interesting example to the House.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, since the question has already been widened by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, who referred to there being a growing together of the community in terms of wealth, will the Minister confirm that none of the shares to which he referred is held by the 15 million people in this country living at or below the poverty level?
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, I answered the noble Lord's point in an earlier supplementary when I gave the social classes. Let it not be forgotten that there are 11 million shareholders altogether.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is not the ineffective if vigorous attempt of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, to rubbish the extremely encouraging answer given by the Minister significant as to the hostility of the Labour Party to the ever-increasing number of private shareholdings? Will the Minister ensure that the public become fully aware of this?
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, again I can only thank my noble friend.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the Minister not agree that one of the sad things that happened while shares were increasing in numbers from 1980 was that unemployment rose to an all-time high in this 552 country? That was the beginning of the most evil thing this nation suffered; namely, the great divide between those who have and those who do not have much.
§ The Earl of Strathmore and KinghorneMy Lords, frankly the noble Lord is not correct in everything that he says. I rose to this Dispatch Box today and gave good news to the House.