HL Deb 12 July 1990 vol 521 cc432-4

3.7 p.m.

Lord Moran asked Her Majesty's Government:

What action they are taking to control the import and export of antiquities that have been stolen or illicitly exported from their countries of origin.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, the United Kingdom already has in place channels for international co-operation to help trace stolen works of art. A computerised database indexing stolen artworks already exists; and another, backed by the art and insurance trades, should come into operation next year. In addition the Metropolitan Police arts and antiques squad has been reconstituted.

UK museum and art trade interests have subscribed to two voluntary codes of practice on the handling of items of dubious provenance.

Lord Moran

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he consider it illogical and unsatisfactory that the British Government, having played a full part in negotiating the UNESCO agreement on illicit and illegal trade in antiquities in 1970, and having signed that agreement, should still not have ratified it? The agreement would surely help to prevent the illegal export of antiquities such as the Romano-British hoard from Icklingham in Suffolk and help to get them back. It would also demonstrate that the Government are serious in tackling the problem of illegal exports and imports of antiquities.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, there are two problems with the original 1970 agreement. I am sure that the noble Lord is aware of the UNIDROIT discussions that are going on at the moment. One fault is that the original convention allowed for compensation which apparently is now not available in certain countries. The other relates to the original designation by countries and the fact that works of art that would not be considered of importance for instance in this country might well be considered of importance in another country. In certain Latin American countries the production of such an object at a frontier post results in its immediate loss to the owner.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that light aircraft are frequently used by thieves to take stolen objects—in many cases, valuable long-case clocks—as quickly as possible to the Continent? Can the Government alert the authorities to be more vigilant about the movements of light aircraft?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, my noble friend has made a good point. What he says applies not only to high value items but also to drugs. I shall draw his remarks to the attention of the appropriate authorities.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, the Minister gave no good reason to show why this country has not ratified the convention. Is he aware that one of the most recent collections of objects to be stolen were the bronzes from Suffolk? It is understood that they are now in the United States waiting to be sold. Does the Minister agree that if this country had ratified the convention, as the United States has, it would have been possible to ask its authorities to help with recovery through its federal courts? At present we have no locus.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, there are two problems. First, the matter is the subject of police investigations; secondly, there is the difficulty of identification.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, is it not extraordinary that 58 countries, including the United States, have ratified the convention? There may be objections to this country doing so but I believe that it could fall into line. Does the Minister remember a similar case in which my wife was involved? It was at Wanborough where over the course of several nights 2 million gold and silver coins were removed from a field belonging to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. They appeared later in America and Europe. Nothing could be done. There was not even the protection of treasure trove, a subject about which I shall not speak today.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I went to some length in my Answer to show that the United Kingdom believes that effective policing, in the broadest sense of the phrase, is the most effective defence. I also went to some length in my second answer to the noble Lord, Lord Moran, to explain that, good though the intentions are, since 1970 there have been serious problems with the convention. For that reason, we do not believe that it has the strength that it appears to have.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is not our reluctance to sign any agreement relating to antiquities due to the reluctance of the British Museum which fears that if we become involved in any kind of international exchange we must return the Elgin Marbles?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, should address his question to the British Museum and not to this Dispatch Box.

Viscount Eccles

My Lords, if an object is exported without a licence, is there any way in which we can recover it? Recently, a valuable early map of Louisiana appeared on the New York market.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, if the object has been stolen I assume that one can resort to the civil law. However, I am not aware of the case to which my noble friend refers.