HL Deb 02 July 1990 vol 520 cc1891-3

2.57 p.m.

Baroness David asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they now have the information on the expected staffing and costs of the joint committee and country councils which are planned to come into being if the Environmental Protection Bill is enacted.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, work on the staffing, structure and organisation of the three new councils and the joint committee is continuing, as I explained to the noble Baroness in my Written Answer on 14th June. However, it is not yet complete and so no definitive costs are yet available.

Baroness David

My Lords, I cannot really thank the Minister for that Answer because it is not satisfactory. He told me in the Written Answer that work was being undertaken by the Government and the existing agencies on the staffing, structure and organisation of the new councils and the joint committee. Can he say whether the result of that work will be available before we go into Committee on Part VII of the Bill on Wednesday?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I fear that I shall have to give the noble Baroness what she will see as a second unsatisfactory answer. Work is proceeding, but I cannot give a guarantee that the result will be ready by Wednesday.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, is it the Government's expectation that the new councils will be ready to start work on 1st April 1991? If the answer is yes, what steps are being taken to acquire and to finance the extra staff that will be needed? Is the Minister aware that the Worldwide Fund for Nature has calculated that in Scotland alone a further £10 million will be required this year to make the extra provision for staffing in April 1991?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I shall answer the last part of the noble Baroness's question first. I am well aware of that figure. However, I must remind your Lordships that the figure assumes a more than doubling of the number of staff required which we consider over optimistic, to say the least. In answer to the first part of the noble Baroness's question, the Government have already allowed an extra £1.4 million this year towards the cost of the changes.

Lord Moran

My Lords, is it the case that a report by the Nature Conservancy Council and outside consultants has estimated that the re-organisation will require an extra 400 permanent posts in order to deliver the same amount of nature conservation work as is available now? Is the Minister further aware that if statutory obligations are to be fulfilled an extra 600 posts will be needed? Will he consider placing this report, if it exists, in the Library of the House?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the Government have a responsibility to the taxpayer. However, we will take into account all the information that is placed in front of us. In the carrying out of their responsibilities, the Government are aware that there will be an increase in costs.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, will the Minister now acknowledge that that series of unsatisfactory answers has blown a gaping hole in the amendments which he has put down for the next day of the Committee stage of the Environmental Protection Bill? Those amendments were available in print only this morning. How can the Government propose a joint committee when they do not have the faintest idea what the staffing costs will be?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, that is far from the truth. The Government committed £1.4 million this year in preparation for the changes that will take place. I said in an entirely satisfactory reply that the Government are aware that costs will increase. The changes are to be carried out because we wish to get the job done better. We would not have achieved that if we had not at the same time increased the true level of expenditure by 160 per cent. since the introduction of the 1981 Act.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, if the staffing of the joint committee proves to be the problem that noble Lords opposite suggest, are the Government open to the possibility of returning to their original proposals, which were that the chairmen for England, Scotland and Wales should simply liaise in a non-statutory way as and when required, as other organisations in the United Kingdom do so satisfactorily?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, at the moment we are hoping to proceed as planned.

Baroness David

My Lords, will the Minister say whether the Treasury has agreed to any sum? Is he aware that we do not wish to be told after a certain length of time that resources will not be adequate because the Treasury will not agree to them?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, it is rather hard to get the Treasury to agree to a figure before we have established what the figure is.