Community Charge: Arrears in Scotland (Hansard, 30 January 1990)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)
My Lords, while no overall figure is yet available, it would appear that the proportion of people in arrears with their community charge payments is broadly the same as under the rating system last year.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is extremely difficult to compare one rating system with another? Will he confirm that the number of summary warrants issued in Scotland to non-payers of a tax which came into existence in April last year is 400,000? Is he further aware that in the city of Glasgow 22 per cent. of those liable to pay the tax have not paid it? Can he tell me how he proposes to collect that tax in view of the fact that the Scottish banks have indicated that they are unable to handle the number of arrestment notices?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, it is difficult in this case to make comparisons between one year and another. I can confirm that the local authorities have produced certain figures which may be in the region set out by the noble Lord. Strathclyde initiated warrant action against 78,700 non-payers of domestic rates last year —about 18 per cent. of the number of private sector houses in the region.
The noble Lord asked about schemes for recouping losses from those unwilling or unable to pay. Bank arrestment is one such means. Recent meetings between bank representatives and councils allayed many of the banks' initial fears.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that his reply was in such Civil Service jargon that many noble Lords on both sides of the House smiled at it? What action is being taken against people who do not pay the tax?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, there are various ways of recovering debt. Three ways are used in Scotland at the moment. One is poinding or warrant sales; the second is through arrestment of wages; and the third is bank arrestment. These three ways of being able to obtain money from those who default are well known in Scotland and are written into law.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that this administrative nightmare will come south of the Border this year. He may then find a great many objections from his side of the House. Does he realise that many people have a genuine difficulty with the poll tax? Under the old rating system 100 per cent. rebates were available for those on low incomes. That figure has now been reduced to 80 per cent. Each person over 18 will have to pay 20 per cent. of perhaps £400 or £500. That is a severe blow to those who are in receipt of inadequate incomes and is especially hard on old people. The Government would greatly reduce the problem if they could reinstate for that category the 100 per cent. rebate.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I know what the noble Lord is saying because we debated the matter at length when the Bill passed through the House. Income support levels have been enhanced specifically to meet the requirement on recipients to pay 20 per cent. of the community charge. In those circumstances, if a person refuses to pay the charge it is only reasonable that local authorities should be able to recover the debt. I understand what the noble Lord says, but there is a remedy.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, does my noble friend judge from the tone of the questions from the other side of the House that they are an encouragement for laggards not to pay or an encouragement to laggards to think again and pay their proper dues?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, it is always unfortunate that those who do not pay, whether it be the business rate or the community charge referred to in the Question, make it more difficult for those who do pay. They have to carry the cost.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, did the Minister see a recent television broadcast which dealt with these problems in Scotland? If he did, how does he explain the position of crofters, who receive no local services? They have no street lighting, no street cleaning, and so on. How does he justify charging those people personal poll taxes?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I did not see the programme. I have special responsibility for the crofters. I do not think that the Government have let down the crofters in general terms, bearing in mind the amount of support provided, especially in the Highlands and islands. If one is poor one can obtain rebates. Why should a crofter be any different from someone who is poor in my area of the Borders?

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the figures quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, will include many people who have moved from one region to another? Strathclyde has not yet developed a sophisticated enough system to track them down. They are probably paying the community charge in another region while Strathclyde is still trying to obtain from them the money which is no longer due.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I know that the whole introduction of this new tax has been a problem for local authorities. However, I am advised that local authorities are responding very well to the difficulties of such a situation. I would not like it to be thought that the Government think in any way that local authorities are not living up to and coping with what is a difficult situation.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that noble Lords on this side of the House very much resent the remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls, which implied that the Labour Party was supporting laggards? It does not support laggards. However, the Labour Party is concerned ——

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
Is the noble Lord aware that the Labour Party is concerned about the nightmare —this is not only in Scotland but in the whole of England —which local authorities have in tracing people, getting the bills to them and finally getting the bills paid on time? This is not because people do not want to pay; it is simply because the poll tax is an absurd system which will benefit no one, least of all local authorities.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, we must look at the overall situation. Perhaps I may tell the House that over 90 per cent. of the poll tax has already been paid in two regions of Scotland and in one area the figure nearly reached 98 per cent. I do not think that it is an impossible task but it is a difficult one. Moreover, I am sure that local authorities are facing up to it. While I am interested in the remarks made by the noble Lord, I have no doubt that a return to a property tax, which perhaps his party is thinking about, would not be very helpful to the nation at present.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, since I am the guilty party because I asked the Question, perhaps I may assure the noble Lord that it is no part of the policy of the Social Democratic Party —and I am sure that I may speak for the Liberals in this respect —to encourage people not to pay the tax. However, in view of the figure given of 400,000 summary warrants issued to individuals, is the Minister aware that it not only represents a socially unjust tax but, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, also an administrative nightmare?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, there are always reasons for people paying or not paying tax. I think that that fact will become clear as time goes on. However, perhaps I may suggest to the noble Lord, as he was concerned about warrant sales and so on, that as regards the figure I gave for rate warrants issued in Strathclyde last year, out of the 78,000 warrants issued only four or five people actually had to go to warrant sales. That is a measure of the situation. However, we shall obviously keep this under review.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, the Minister mentioned what has been done for the Highlands and Islands and compared that with the situation of people living in the Border country. Can he specify the kind of services at the disposal of the people living on the Isle of Barra and people living in the Border country?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Yes, my Lords, much has been done for the population of the Isle of Barra. Indeed, this year we have instituted the Vatersay Causeway scheme at a cost of £3 million. The number of people living in those outer islands is very small. Of course we recognise that they need help, and they receive this under the crofters' capital grants system, which helps them enormously, and also through the agricultural development programme and so on. I could continue. I hope that noble Lords do not think that those of us on this side of the House do not realise that crofters need support. They need support and they receive it.