Tropical Forests: Preservation (Hansard, 24 January 1990)

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, since October 1988 the Overseas Development Administration has been managing a forestry initiative to promote the wise and sustainable use of forest resources. In November last year my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced that we would aim to commit a further £100 million bilaterally to tropical forestry activities over the next three years.
Internationally, we work with other donors and developing countries through the Tropical Forestry Action Plan. We strongly support the International Tropical Timber Organisation. We continue to encourage other bilateral and multilateral donors to give the same priority to forestry that we give.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. While the Government are clearly giving high priority to providing finance for afforestation abroad, can more be done to prevent the cutting down of tropical forests which is happening on a huge scale? The pace of destruction is running far ahead of renewal.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I entirely agree that the destruction of the tropical rain forests would be a tragedy. We believe that the best way of preventing it is for the aid-donor countries and international agencies to act in co-operation with the governments and people of the countries in which the forests are to be found, and to take initiatives to save those forests. That is our policy.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, does the Minister agree that one method of relieving the pressure on overseas forests is to encourage domestic forestry? Is he aware that this country's total bill for imported forest products is now £6 billion per annum, while our planting programme is falling far short of the Government's target?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the development of forestry in this country has an important role to play in supplying timber requirements. As regards the suggestion that imports from developing countries should be banned, we believe that it would be wrong to prevent developing countries from enjoying the 1052 benefits of their natural resources. However, it is important to ensure that that is achieved on a sustainable basis.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, can my noble friend name any of the unco-operative countries which have national forests, or can he approach the question the other way and name any which are co-operative?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, it is important to secure the co-operation of the governments and the people of the developing countries. The Overseas Development Administration is now involved in the running or preparation of 165 projects in 25 different countries. Therefore, there is a wide measure of co-operation.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the problem of cutting down forests in those countries is linked with their population explosion and poverty, and there is an urgent need for policy to be directed towards those issues?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I agree that the main cause of deforestation arises from the poverty of the people living around the forests. In many countries the population is growing rapidly. People need land for agriculture, and wood for fuel for cooking and heating. We must address ourselves to those problems.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the work being carried out into tropical forest preservation by the Overseas Development Natural Resources Institute at Chatham? What additional money are the Government making available for its work?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I do not have the particular figures available, but I shall write to the noble Lord and send them to him. The Government believe that the non-governmental organisations in general have a valuable role to play in conserving tropical forests. In total, the ODA supports 38 such projects worth £3 million.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the debt for development scheme now operative in Sudan? Thereby, instead of repaying debts to certain banks —notably, Hambros, Deutschesbank and Midland —the Sudanese Government pay them to UNICEF to be spent on development projects concerned mainly with afforestation schemes. Will the Minister say what the Government are doing to encourage other banks to take part in the scheme, and to assist a country such as Brazil in preserving its rain forests?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the noble Baroness is referring to what is sometimes known as "debt for nature swaps". We believe that where they are voluntarily agreed between the holders of debt and developing countries, they can make a useful contribution.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the destruction of rain forests also involves the destruction of whole tribes and their primitive cultures? Can anything be done to try to stop that happening, as was the case with the Red Indians and others?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is extremely important to take to heart the interests of the people who live in the forests.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, is not the key point of the entire discussion that we should try to make it profitable for countries to keep their rain forests? Does my noble friend agree that unless we can manage to do so, we shall continue to be on a loser, and that sooner or later we shall have no rain forests whatever?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the noble Viscount has made a good point. The forests are an important asset for the developing countries, and we must encourage them to develop them on a sustainable basis.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, what do the Government think can be done on the other side of the equation —that is, looking towards countries which are richer than us and perhaps less conscientious and whose imports of tropical timber constitute a greater part of the problem?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, as I said, we do not believe that we should pursue the path of restricting imports of tropical timber; rather, we should seek better management of the forests so that that can be done on a sustainable basis.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say more about the Tropical Forestry Action Plan which he mentioned? How wide internationally is the participation in it, and from where is it organised and directed?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the Tropical Forestry Action Plan was drawn up in 1985 by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation, the World Bank, the United Nations development programme and a North American NGO, the World Resources Institute. It provides the main mechanism by which donors can have a dialogue with developing countries about their forestry policies. Accordingly, our own forestry programme in each country is, where possible, carried out within the framework of the TFAP.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, do the Government believe that the present rate of extraction of rare hardwoods and their use can be sustained by a policy of the growing nations? Is it not a fact that the present rate must deplete the stock of timber?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I certainly agree that the tropical forests are being depleted at an unsustainable rate. My point is that the main cause of this deforestation arises from the poverty of the 1054 people living around those forests. Commercial logging is a factor, but is not the main cause.

§ Lord Moran
My Lords, do the Government propose to take advantage of the forthcoming visit of the new President of Brazil to discuss this problem with him?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I am sure such matters will be discussed when the president visits this country.