The Classless Society (Hansard, 13 December 1990)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)
My Lords, The Government will continue with their policies of extending opportunity through increased home and share ownership, the encouragement of wealth creation by low taxation on families and business and reforms in education so that men and women may go as far as their talents, ambitions and effort can take them without artificial barriers of background, religion, or race.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer. I welcome him in answering his first Question at the Dispatch Box. Does the noble Lord regard the constitution of this House as part of the classless society or has he any proposals for reform?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I do not think that it would be wise for me at this first Question Time to attack hereditary honours. I note that many noble Lords on the Opposition Benches who claim to support the classless society have hereditary titles themselves. What matters is not the titles that people hold but whether those with talent and ambition have the opportunity to use their talents to the full.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, as a contribution towards the classless society and as one of his first tasks, will the noble Lord examine the possibility of doing something about the very classified nature of this House?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, that is far too great a matter for me to deal with today. No doubt it will be the subject of debate on many occasions, but I do not think that this is the time for me to launch into the intricacies of the British constitution.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, does the noble Lord believe that we can have a classless society which includes a very large number of unemployed people? As the figures released today show that the increase in the number of the unemployed—which is part of government policy—is now moving towards 2 million, is that factor included in the Government's proposals for producing the classless society?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, it is right to point out that the number of long-term unemployed has actually fallen again and that more people are in work than ever before. The truth of the matter is that the living standards of all sections of society have improved in recent years. I do not understand how it can be suggested that depressing living standards, as happened under Labour, bring one nearer to a classless society. Social spending has increased in real terms by 41 per cent. in the past 11 years; social security spending on families actually went down under the previous Labour Government.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on becoming Leader of the House. Many of us consider that a just society is to be preferred to a so-called classless society. In that context, does he not agree that we cannot have a just society when there are far too many people out of work and too many of our fellow citizens are sleeping rough in boxes in the 579 centres of our great cities? That is not a just society; it is certainly not a classless society; it is simply a bad society.

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, it is certainly the case that a slowing down of the economy has occurred after eight years of unprecedented growth—after eight years during which our economy grew very much faster than that of almost any other country in the European Community. Noble Lords will recognise how necessary it is to combat inflation. The slowing down of the economy that has occurred and the regrettable increase in unemployment will have to be endured for the moment in order to squeeze inflation out of the system.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, the noble Lord said that the Opposition Benches contain a large number of hereditary Peers. Is he aware that, if all those who are not hereditary Peers were to disappear, looking around me at the moment I think that that would leave just four of us?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I was obviously concentrating my mind on the debate which took place yesterday, when one or two hereditary Peers on the Opposition Benches made most interesting contributions.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the commitment made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is most simply described as a commitment to a society in which all members of the United Kingdom can make the best use of their talents and that is not obstructed by the institutions which some noble Lords opposite are seeking to denigrate?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, my noble friend is entirely right. When my right honourable friend the Prime Minister referred to a classless society, he was referring to a society in which every individual could make the best use of the talents at his disposal. I believe that that day has come very much nearer during the past 11 years.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, in regard to every individual making a contribution to society, do the Government's plans for a classless society include the removal of the present inhibition to most women becoming Members of your Lordships' House?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, it is part of the Government's programme to see that there is real equality of opportunity. Many steps have been taken in recent years to further that aim.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the Government are adopting a gradual approach to a classless society by creating Baronets instead of Peers?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, that is a subject on which again I had better not comment.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Wales is in fact a classless society? Is he further aware that it is 100 years since Lloyd George entered Parliament and that he, a Welshman, did more than any other politician in this century to move us towards a classless society?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I do not think it is right this afternoon for me to express a view on the virtues or lack of virtues of Mr. Lloyd George.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, in view of the fact that nowhere on this earth does a classless society exist, can the noble Lord, without political invective, say in simple terms what in his mind constitutes a classless society?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, it is an open society and a society in which each individual, man or woman, can make the best use of the talents at his or her disposal; and if he or she has the energy and the talents, he or she can rise to the top.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, bearing in mind the noble Lord's background in the Home Office and also the view that justice is available only to the very rich or the very poor, will the Government now have another look at the legal aid system to ensure that justice is available to all?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is present to hear the noble Lord's remarks.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their U-turn in admitting the existence of society, which was repudiated by the right honourable lady the Member for Finchley while she occupied such a distinguished office. Will the noble Lord explain how he proposes to incorporate within his new society the 4 million children who according to the latest UNICEF report are living under conditions of poverty, a number double what it was 10 years ago?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, the noble Lord has advanced a most extraordinary proposition. When one looks back at 1979–80 and remembers the legislation then introduced to give people the opportunities which they never had before to buy their council houses, when one looks at all the opportunities which have been given over recent years for people to acquire shares, not only shares in any company but in the companies for which they work, and when one considers the opportunities available now for people to pass on wealth to their children, there are now opportunities such as people 11 years ago never dreamt of.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord asserted that the standard of living of all the people of this country had risen over the past 10 years. Is he aware that the bottom 10 per cent. of our population have seen their standard of living rise by about 10 per cent., whereas the top 10 per cent. have seen their standard of living rise by more than 70 per cent.? Is that what he and his right honourable friend consider to be progress towards a classless society?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I can only assume from the noble Lord's question that he would be far happier if there had been no increase in living standards for any of the classes in society so that all of them would have had the lower standards of living which they had under the last Labour Government.