§ 2.52 p m.
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they will reconsider their decision to instruct the maritime investigation unit to carry out an inquiry into the sinking of the trawler "Antares" and instead hold a public inquiry into the incident.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, whether or not my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport decides to hold a formal investigation into the accident, an investigation by the marine accident investigation branch is still necessary in order to gather evidence.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that there will be general approval for the fact that the new code of conduct proposed by the Navy has been accepted by the Clyde Fishermen's Association? In view of the fact that the Minister for the Armed Forces described it as a freak incident and as there have been at least 12 similar incidents, fortunately without loss of life, over the past 11 years, is this not now a matter for a public inquiry rather than an internal inquiry by the Ministry?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I sought to explain in my original Answer that a decision on whether to have a formal investigation, which is the form of public inquiry that would take place in this type of shipping accident, has not yet been taken. There is, however, very likely to be a Scottish fatal accident inquiry—that is a matter for the Scottish Law Officers—which would go into this matter in great detail.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, can my noble friend confirm that within the past few days an agreement has been reached between the Royal Navy and the fishermen's organisations in the Clyde which will enable the fishermen to know the routes which these operational submarines will be taking? That should greatly reduce any possibility of a repetition of this accident, which everyone greatly regrets.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraYes, my Lords, and I entirely endorse what my noble friend has said.
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, can the Minister tell us why the very much welcomed safety code has not been extended to the Irish Sea, or at least to parts of the Irish Sea, where it is alleged similar incidents have occurred in the past? Can he inform the House whether the reports following the inquiries which are currently being carried out will be published? After all, these matters have given rise to very considerable public anxiety. There have been serious incidents in the past and indeed there is an overwhelming case for public anxiety to be allayed by full publication.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the noble Lord's first question is very different from the one on the Order Paper. The inspector's report will be published unless the Secretary of State orders a formal investigation or there is a very good reason not to publish. If a formal investigation is held, that report will be published.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, is there not a serious danger in giving advance notice of these movements outside our own territorial waters?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that, again, is a different question from the one on the Order Paper.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, following the question of my noble friend, is it not the case that the arrangements surrounding the movements of our nuclear-powered submarines are among the most sensitive of our defence secrets? Will my noble friend therefore take steps to ensure that, whatever arrangements are very properly agreed with the fishermen, they will in no way prejudice those arrangements?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I shall of course pass on the remarks made in your Lordships' House this afternoon. However, I have to say that those questions are well outside the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, the noble Lord confirmed that there was an arrangement between the Clyde fishermen and the Royal Navy to the effect that the Royal Navy would inform those fishermen of the routes taken by its submarines and ships generally. Does that agreement not apply to other fishermen? My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis referred to the Irish Sea. As the noble Lord well knows, the sad event occurred in the Irish Sea and affects Welsh fishermen and English fishermen as it does the fishermen of the Clyde.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraYes, my Lords, but as I said in reply to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy, I understood that the code of conduct had been agreed.
501 I welcome that. The Question on the Order Paper relates to what type of inquiry will take place into this incident. I cannot go further than that this afternoon.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the noble Lord is not dealing with the question I put to him. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, he said that an agreement exists between the Clyde fishermen and the Royal Navy. I am asking whether that agreement applies to British fishermen other than the Clyde fishermen.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, what I am saying is that that question is well outside the Question on the Order Paper. I do not have the information.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, arising from the point raised by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, is my noble friend aware that this agreement has been reached only within the past three or four days and can therefore refer only to the area in question? But presumably other areas will be dealt with in due course.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that may well be the case. I am not in a position to answer on details of the agreement. It is quite outside the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, is it not a fact that there have been many complaints from fishermen about the activities in their fishing grounds of nuclear-powered submarines? It took a sinking and four deaths to get any action as regards the matter. Is there not a case for looking at the complaints in respect of other areas before more serious accidents occur?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, these matters can be dealt with in the inquiry. Any previous accidents can be raised.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, will the Minister pass on the concern expressed by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and myself?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I have already said in reply to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne that that will happen.
§ Lord Clinton-DavisMy Lords, will the Minister also undertake to report to the Secretary of State the desire of noble Lords to extend the safety code into other areas? We may then be able to return to the matter at a later time. Will the Minister join me in extending our condolences to the family of Mr. Jamie Russell, the skipper of the "Antares", and to the families of the three other members of the crew who perished in this unfortunate accident?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraCertainly, my Lords, I readily agree to do so. I am sure that we all feel very sympathetic in regard to what happened. As I have already said, I shall draw to my right honourable friend's attention what has been said.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the Minister state that Her Majesty's Government are as concerned for the lives of fishermen working off the Scottish coast, as well as those working off all our other coasts, 502 as they are for the welfare and operation of nuclear submarines? Further, in view of the fact, as I pointed out earlier, that there have been many incidents around the coast which cannot be proven, will he pass on to his right honourable friend the feeling in this House that there ought to be a public inquiry which would incorporate the Irish Sea and other coasts where similar incidents have been reported?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as I said, if there is to be a formal investigation into such matters all those issues can be raised on that occasion.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, as we have now spent 23 minutes on three Questions, which exceeds our total allowance of 20 minutes, should we not move on to deal with the next Question?