Disabled People: British Rail Facilities (Hansard, 30 April 1990)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, British Rail is indeed subject to the provisions of Section 4 of the Act. The measures that it has adopted include induction loops at ticket offices for the hard of hearing, designing new rolling stock to accommodate wheelchairs and installing ramps and/or lifts where that is feasible.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. First, who is responsible for seeing that the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act is implemented? Secondly, does my noble friend remember that on 6th February I asked a Question about Oxford station, which is being newly built? In the original plan no provision was made for the chronically sick and disabled to move from ore platform to another.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am bound to say from what I have heard that the present facilities at Oxford station are not up to the standard that we ought to expect. I hope that British Rail will be able to improve them. Indeed I understand that it had a meeting with Oxford City Council and has agreed in principle that lifts should be installed as soon as funds are available and in any event within the next three years. I dare say that that has something to do with the pressure exerted by my noble friend, and I congratulate her on that.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, although it might be right for British Rail to discuss that one particular issue with officials of the City of Oxford, has it also had discussions with the very able representatives of the organisations for the disabled?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I know that a number of organisations for the disabled make representations to British Rail, as indeed they do quite properly to other bodies. Indeed, it was such representations to public bodies that led to the inclusion of Section 4 in the Act to which I have referred.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will my noble friend break the news to British Rail that resistance 770 to pressure from my noble friend Lady Faithfull is always ineffective and costs far more in the long run than instant surrender?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I fancy that that truism is now dawning upon British Rail.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, does the Minister recall that the Act specifically lays down that if sanitary conveniences are provided, special provision should be made for the disabled so far as is both reasonable and practicable? Is he aware that that is not being honoured by British Rail even at the main London terminal stations?
With reference to the noble Baroness's first supplementary question to which the noble Lord did not reply, whose responsibility is it to see whether a provision is unreasonable or impracticable? Is such a decision simply left to British Rail?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am quite certain that British Rail is fully seized of its responsibilities under the section to which the noble Lord refers. However, as he pointed out, it is required to make these provisions only when it is both practicable and reasonable so to do. There are circumstances where practicability or reasonableness prevent facilities from being provided in the short or medium term.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, reference has been made to the 1970 Act. The noble Lord will be aware that under the 1985 Transport Act, the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee was set up. Will he say how often that body meets and when it last met representatives of British Rail? Although there have been improvements in particular to British Rail main line stations, does finance play any part in developments, in particular of moving stock?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, with regard to the last part of the noble Lord's question, yes of course finance plays a part. Some facilities are very expensive. For example, I understand that the lifts it is now proposed to install at Oxford station will cost about £300,000. That is a substantial sum which has to be found from somewhere. Very often such provision has to take its place in the queue of priorities.
I believe that British Rail takes its responsibilities in this matter very seriously. It has a code of design requirements for disabled customers, and has recently reissued the design guide with changes and improvements, which were announced as recently as January of this year.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, with reference to statutory requirements, do the Government provide any money to enable British Rail to carry out its duties?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, no, the Government do not directly finance those requirements. Under the Act it is a duty placed upon public bodies, which in general are required to find the funding. However, British Rail often does so in association with local authorities, and that is the intention with regard to Oxford.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is Section 4 fortified by criminal penalty for breach? If so, who are the policing and prosecuting authorities responsible for taking proceedings?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, to the best of my knowledge Section 4 is not constrained by criminal considerations, as my noble and learned friend suggests. However, I shall happily inquire further and write to him.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, I heard the answer which the Minister gave to the second part of my question. However, could he answer the first part in which I referred to the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee? How often does it meet and has it met recently with representatives of British Rail?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I apologise for not answering the question. I do not have the information in front of me but I shall happily inquire and write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Hunter of Newington
My Lords, are the Government satisfied that access for the disabled to Richmond House is satisfactory?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I apologise for not being fully informed about the premises to which the noble Lord referred. Again, I shall inquire about the matter and write to him.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is it not a fact that there is no sanction for a breach of Section 4? It is merely a requirement without a sanction; that is, quite apart from the criminal sanction to which my noble and learned friend referred. There is none.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, from my experience it appears that a sanction even more awe-inspiring than the criminal sanction to which my noble and learned friend referred is the wrath of my noble friend Lady Faithfull. It appears to have done the trick in this case.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, British Rail says that it cannot install the lifts for three years. What will happen to disabled people during those years?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it has been decided that the work should be carried out within three years; I too hope that it will be sooner rather than later. In the meantime alternative arrangements are available involving the use of taxis to take disabled people from one side of the station to the other. I agree with my noble friend that those arrangements are not satisfactory even though they are provided free of charge.