HL Deb 26 April 1990 vol 518 cc664-8

3.15 p.m.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, by leave of the House, I should like to prefix my Question with a short personal statement together with a declaration of interest. I have been assured by the noble Lord the Leader of the House that it is in order for me to seek it.

On the assumption that I have it, I should like to begin 25 years ago. The Constable of the Tower was the late Field-Marshal Sir Gerald Templer, who asked my late wife to undertake the beautification of the Chapels Royal at the Tower of London. She made this her number one priority for the remaining balance of her life. When I became a widower I was asked whether I would become President of the Association of Friends of the Chapels Royal at Her Majesty's Tower of London.

Your Lordships will appreciate that for 25 years I have known personally all the constables of the Tower, all the lieutenants, all the resident governors, all the chaplains and many of the yeoman warders. During this period it has been, to borrow a term from the other service, a happy ship. It is now a most unhappy ship due to the way in which the yeoman warders learnt that their peaceful Sunday mornings were under threat.

With that much preamble, I beg leave to ask the Question that stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

By whose authority the Historic Royal Palaces Agency was set up, and why the Constable and resident Governor of HM Tower of London have ceased to be members of the Royal Household, and who is now Keeper of the Jewel House and in command of the armed garrison that protects it.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, the Secretary of State for the Environment has for many years been responsible for the management and financing of the historic royal palaces, including the Tower of London. The Historic Royal Palaces Agency is an executive agency established by his authority within his department. That is purely an administrative change.

The Secretary of State is responsible to Parliament and to the Queen for the safety of the Crown Jewels, and the holder of the office of resident governor has for many years been a civil servant in his department. The resident governor is the Keeper of the Jewel House and is responsible for the management and security of the Tower of London under the agency's chief executive. Under arrangements agreed between the department and the Ministry of Defence, the General Officer Commanding London District provides an armed guard, primarily to ensure the security of the Crown Jewels. The officer in charge of the guard reports to the resident governor.

I understand that the Constable, though appointed by Letters Patent, has never been a member of the Royal Household. Membership of the Royal Household is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the recitation of the status quo. I should like to ask two supplementary questions. On morale, is it not the first duty of any commander or chief executive to care for the morale of his subordinates? Can anything be more erosive of morale than altering the structure of command at top level and leaving subordinates to find out from a Parliamentary Question in another place and the Answer of the Minister, without any process of consultation?

On the question of command, I have this to ask. In the event of a raid upon the Tower of London, the armed guards being provided with ammunition, who gives the order, "Load and return fire"?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, with regard to morale, the yeoman warders have long been staff of the Department of the Environment, and we believe that they are a loyal and committed body of staff who command the full confidence of the governor. With regard to the command of the armed garrison, with the agreement of the General Officer Commanding London District, troops on duty at the Tower are on detachment and form a separate garrison headed by the officer of the London Tower Guard, reporting to the resident governor. They operate under written orders agreed with the Ministry of Defence to ensure the security of the Crown Jewels.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister a little more about the warders of the Tower of London and their feelings of loss of morale. I understand that what has been put forward by the noble Earl is quite true. But at any point have there been consultations with them about that change? Does the noble Lord agree that there have been changes or talk of changes? There was quite a lot about that in the press. When I telephoned the agency I was given absolutely no information apart from being told that what was in the press was incorrect. Will he agree that if something to do with the Government is being rumoured which is quite incorrect, it is for the agency to issue the correct version instead of upsetting, which it did, the 40 yeoman warders of the Tower of London who are very anxious about their future?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am very conscious that the noble Baroness feels that she received a short answer. I suspect that the reason is that there are no proposals for change at present. If any changes are proposed they will take place over the next year or longer period, after consultations have taken place. The difficulty is that the answer which the noble Baroness received reflects the truth of the matter. There was more speculation in the press than was warranted by the facts.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, I understand that the Palace of Holyrood House is not at present run by the Historic Royal Palaces Agency. Can the noble Lord give an assurance that it never will be?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I believe that the Historic Royal Palaces Agency operates south rather than north of the Border. However, if the noble Lady wishes to table a Question regarding north of the Border, I shall be happy to answer it.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is it not the case that the governor of the Tower of London was always directly answerable to Her Majesty the Queen? What is the present position? Is it not the case that he is now answerable to a civil servant? If so, can the noble Lord tell us the grade of that civil servant?

Secondly, is it not the case that the yeoman warders work a 50-hour week? They are men who have given great service to this country. Is there now a danger that they may be asked to work on Sundays? Is it proposed to employ more yeoman warders so that they do not work more hours than are reasonable?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I shall answer the last question of the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, first. As I said in my previous answer, there has been a great deal of speculation for which there is no basis of fact. As regards the position of the govenor, for the past 20 years he has been a civil servant. The present governor was the first governor from a military background who won the job on the basis of open competition. The position of the governor in the Royal Household is entirely a matter for the Royal Household and not a matter for the Government.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered my question. Whereas the governor was directly responsible to Her Majesty the Queen, is it not the case that the governor—a retired general—is now responsible to a fairly junior civil servant?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, for the past 20 years the governor has been responsible to a civil servant in the Department of the Environment. His position as regards the Royal Household is not something over which the Government have any influence.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, further to the question put by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, one assumes that these people are Crown servants. Who settles their terms and conditions of employment? That is putting in another way the question of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the governor and the yeoman warders are employed by the Department of the Environment. It is through that system that their terms and conditions are agreed.

The Duke of Norfolk

My Lords, I have a remote interest in that there is a herald's museum in the Tower of London and obviously I have some interest in that. Why are the Tower armouries to be moved, having been in their present position since 1070? I believe that they are to be removed to Sheffield after that long period in the White Tower which was almost built for them by William the Conqueror. That is to take place because of a desire to make money rather than to preserve our heritage. Is that what the Government really want?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, only 25 per cent. of the entire and invaluable collection of the Royal armouries is available to be seen. There are real problems of display within the confines of the Tower of London itself. The Royal armouries desire the opportunity to investigate the possibility of a bigger display in better circumstances, and are reviewing a number of options in order to provide that for the benefit of the public and in the interests of the heritage of this country.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, in view of the Minister's answer to my noble friend, does he agree with the Answer which his ministerial colleague, Mr. Trippier, gave in another place on 21st February of this year? He said: I am happy to tell my honourable friend that the practicalities and economics of early or all-day Sunday opening are currently under review".—[Official Report, Commons, 21/2/90; col. 921.] He then went on to explain the current position; namely, that there are no Sunday openings. Is the Minister saying that Sunday openings are currently under review? He said that the agency gave me that answer because that was the true position. If what the Minister said in another place is correct, why could the agency not have given me that information, because that is the core of the problem with the yeoman warders?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the noble Baroness is slightly incorrect because there is already Sunday afternoon opening rather than no opening at all on a Sunday, which she suggested. The position of all royal palaces and great heritage sites will be reviewed constantly in the years ahead. I also point out to the noble Baroness that Hampton Court, where the other royal chapel exists, is already open on Sunday mornings. However, any changes will take place on a basis of investigation and not speculation.

Lord Jay

My Lords, does that also cover Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle? What are the changes which may or may not take place within the next few years?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the basis of review is that I cannot provide an answer with certainty today.

The Duke of Norfolk

My Lords, we are talking about the White Tower, the central tower, built by William the Conqueror. Are the Tower armouries to be removed from there? Why can those which are there at present not be left there and the surplus moved away? To evacuate the whole of the Tower armouries from the Tower after so many centuries merely to make money is something which we should not do.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, last night I dined in the White Tower and was completely unaware of any suggestion that the armouries were to be taken out of the White Tower.

Lord Napier and Ettrick

My Lords, are the Government satisfied that the chief executive has enough to do?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am sure that the level of interest in the Question in your Lordships' House this afternoon reveals that he has.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, to wind up this matter, will the noble Lord remember that the yeoman warders in Her Majesty's Tower of London are not just decorative symbols in out-of-date military costume? They still wear the Queen's Colours and are not nobodys to be pushed around at convenience like the furniture. All of them are highly decorated ex-regimental sergeant majors—warrant officers of the highest rank—and should be treated as such.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I assure the noble Earl that the department fully understands that the reason that the Tower of London is the most important tourist attraction in the United Kingdom is in great part due to the very facts which he has given to us this afternoon.