Older Employees: Opportunities (Hansard, 2 April 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, Department of Employment Ministers take every opportunity to emphasise to employers the need to make full use of older people, particularly 1099 in view of demographic trends. Measures such as staff in jobcentres challenging all upper age limits on vacancies notified to them and the abolition of the earnings rule for pensioners were also introduced.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. Does the Minister accept that those of us who take an interest in these matters welcome the abolition of the earnings rule, as indeed we welcome the publicising campaigns just mentioned? Is the Minister also aware that there is little evidence to suggest that those campaigns on the demographic changes had any effect on the majority of employers to employ older workers? Will the Government consider legislation to end age discrimination in recruitment as an important first step to changing the minds of employers regarding the advantages of employing older workers?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord says that there is no evidence to suggest that the Government's campaign worked. I am not sure that he has evidence to prove that it has not. We have always made plain— and we are continuing to do so, particularly in the light of demographic trends— that employers must look across the full range of potential employees to ensure that they obtain the best possible workforce for their particular industries; and that includes older people.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, can I ask the Minister what steps, if any, the Civil Service as an employer has taken in order to increase the number of older people recruited into the service?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the Civil Service is regarded as a good employer. It increased the range of ages at which people are encouraged to join the Civil Service, in some instances by raising the age qualification, in order to persuade older people to apply for jobs.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, will the Minister tell the House the steps that have been taken to persuade employers to retain older employees? Will he also assure the House that the era in which redundancy is disguised as early retirement has ended? I am sure that he will be aware that many employers in past years made employees redundant at the age of 50 or so, but called it "early retirement".

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we certainly do not encourage that practice by employers. We continually encourage employers, rather than making people redundant, to retrain and therefore retain them. We have done that by a variety of means, as the noble Baroness is aware.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, are the Government aware that the abolition of the earnings rule is extremely popular with older people? Do the Government possess any figures with regard to the increase in the numbers of older people staying at work or taking on new jobs after pension age? They are thus able to earn a little as well as taking their 1100 pension. Are there any figures as to the improvement brought about since last October?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not have those figures to hand; but I shall inquire whether they are available and write to the noble Baroness. It was particularly gratifying to hear my noble friend be so encouraging about that scheme, as it was to hear the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, expressing the same view.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, given the experience accumulated by older workers— of which this House in many ways is an example— would it not be desirable to launch a special campaign to retain older workers in a specific and constructive way without diminishing the promotional prospects of younger workers?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord will be glad to hear that there are a number of instances where employers specifically encouraged older workers and they proved very successful. That is particularly so with Tesco stores, B&Q, British Telecom and British Rail— which have also introduced schemes— as well as MacDonald's and Sainsbury's. Where good practice occurs, it is seen as a success. It does not stop the employment opportunities of young people and we continue to encourage it.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, am I correct in believing that retirement age in the Civil Service is still 60? Are there any barriers put in the way of employees in the Civil Service carrying on beyond that age?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the fact that the retirement age in the Civil Service is 60 is largely historical.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the Minister tell us at what age one becomes classified as an "older worker"?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is no straightforward answer to that question. Perhaps it should be more properly directed to the questioner, the noble Lord, Lord Stallard.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, but he did not answer the most relevant part of my question: whether there were barriers placed in the way of civil servants wishing to carry on beyond the age of 60? I know that it is traditional that they retire at 60.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I understand that the retirement age is 60, and that appears to be an ultimate barrier.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the Minister claims— I do not know on what evidence— that the Civil Service is a good employer. Can the Government apply their mind to the question of the upper age limit in the Civil Service?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I shall certainly pass on to the Minister responsible the suggestion that the retirement age should be examined. I am sure that has happened in the past, and that it has been concluded that 60 is the right age for that particular industry. That allows civil servants who have an enormous amount of experience to go into other employment after reaching the age of 60.

Bareness Phillips
My Lords, is the Minister aware that "becoming older" is getting younger every day, and that 45 is now regarded as "older"? Can he tell us whether there is to be an age limit for members of the Cabinet, including the Prime Minister?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness takes a great deal of interest in the affairs of older people. She successfully piloted a Bill through this House in the last Session. As regards upper age limits in the Cabinet, that will not so much be up to me but, of course, to the people of this country.