Sunday Postal Collections (Hansard, 31 October 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, Ministers meet the Post Office regularly and discuss a wide range of subjects. The introduction of Sunday collections is an operational matter for the Post Office. I understand that it intends to introduce Sunday collections in the first five districts very shortly.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does he recall that the Post Office prefaced its introduction of higher charges a few weeks ago with an indication that one of the purposes of those higher charges was to enable Sunday collections to be started on a large scale? If, as my noble friend suggests, it applies those collections only in a few places, ought it not to reconsider those increased charges?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the Post Office management is determined to press ahead with the service improvements to which it referred at the time mentioned by my noble friend. It would like to move ahead with a Sunday collection programme, but so far it has had difficulty in persuading the unions that that would be the right way in which to proceed. It is continuing to endeavour to persuade the unions to agree, and, as I have said, it hopes to introduce the first few collections soon.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the recent talks between the Post Office and the Union of Communication Workers on Sunday collections, as part of the overall package of service improvements, broke down because the Post Office insisted that union members should not be consulted on the proposed agreement in an individual secret ballot? If that is so, why will it not agree?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I understand that the union management agreed to the introduction of Sunday collections but that at a subsequent conference the union members decided that they were not prepared to take part. It is not for me to interfere with the arrangements made within the trade union to arrive at its decision on the matter. Union members have said that for the moment they are not prepared to take part.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, perhaps I may correct the Minister on one matter. There was indeed initial resistance at the August union conference. The union leadership then negotiated with the Post office management. Is the Minister aware that the Post Office refused to allow the union leadership to submit any subsequent agreement to its members in an individual secret ballot?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if the noble Lord is saying that I am mistaken and that the union members are indeed now willing to take part in those collections, there will be widespread appreciation of that point.

Lord Wiliams of Elvel
My Lords, I am sorry to press the Minister. Does he accept that union members are not allowed to be consulted on the agreement and therefore no one knows whether or not they are in agreement?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, Ministers are not responsible for the conduct of industrial relations discussions in the Post Office. That is a matter for the management and the unions to sort out for themselves.

§ Lord Carr of Hadley
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that all of us, including myself, want to see more collections, but that some of us believe that it is even more important that the accuracy of delivery should be improved? In the post collected in my flat over the weekend, no fewer than 13 letters should not have been delivered to me at all.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid that there are some areas where the service provided by the Post Office is less good than it should be. The Government are reassured by the management's determination to improve the service provided by the Post Office. We hope that the unions will be able to participate in that process.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the Minister agree that when there is industrial action involving a strike it is the result of the failure of joint negotiations? Could it not be indicated to the Post Office officials that they should perhaps be prepared to agree that union members should be allowed to ballot on that issue?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is not for the Post Office management to dictate in the way suggested by the noble Lord. The Post Office management is determined to secure a range of improvements in the service which the Post Office provides. Everyone agrees that those improvements are desirable. We now look to the trade unions to co-operate in that process, including, I hope, participation in Sunday collections.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, in all fairness, would it not have been preferable for the Post Office to have consulted the unions before increasing the charges? As I understand it, that is the substance of my noble friend's Question.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is the job of the Post Office management to manage the Post Office, if my noble friend will allow me to say so. I am sure that the trade unions are as determined as the management to secure the necessary improvements in service. I hope that they will now see that it is in their interests to co-operate fully with the management in achieving that end.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a letter which was sent to me by my Chief Whip the Friday before last reached me, a mile away in Pimlico, at nine o'clock last Wednesday? Had I received it on time, the Government's defeat would have been by a margin one vote greater than it was. Is this a plot by the Government and the Post Office to maintain the Government's majority?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we all have our stories about problems with the Post Office. Sometimes it does a very good job indeed. It is said that our Post Office is among the best in the world, but it still suffers from some shortcomings which I hope and believe will be put right.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend explain how it is that if the unions are not co-operating, the Post Office nonetheless proposes to introduce Sunday collections in, I think the Minister said, five areas? Can he also tell your Lordships which are those five areas?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I understand that the five areas will be centred around Folkestone and will involve the use of volunteers.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that none of these exchanges should be allowed to give the totally false impression that there is criticism of Post Office workers? By and large those workers deliver and collect the mail and do a magnificent job.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, certainly many people in the Post Office work hard and carry out a first-class job. However, the fact is that the unions have prevented the introduction of the Sunday collection which has been long awaited and much sought in recent times. I hope that the unions will now review their position.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, is the noble Lord able to explain a point which I have not been able to follow in the discussion? I refer to the connection between Sunday collections and increased mail charges. Is the implication that Sunday collections will be highly unprofitable; therefore one has to raise the cost of postage for the rest of the week? Why should there be any connection between Sunday collections and the price of a postage stamp?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, Sunday collections are rather expensive for the Post Office to operate. By and large staff have to be paid overtime rates to carry out the necessary work. When the postage rates were increased at the end of last year, the Post Office indicated that among the improvements planned was the restoration of the Sunday collection.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this already overlong discussion, but did the Minister say that the Post Office would use volunteers? Who on earth are these volunteers and what will the unions say about their introduction for the delivery of Sunday mail?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the reason why the resumption of Sunday collections can only for the moment be contemplated in a very small number of places is that volunteers will conduct the service. However, it would not be possible to restore Sunday collections completely on the basis of volunteers only.